Announcing The 'Not News' Section

From the Code of Honor:

Newsvine's primary purpose is to provide a place for people to share and discuss topics relating to the news.

That's never been its only purpose. Newsviners have used the site for everything from writing exercises to finishing long sentences to digging through each others' photo albums.

Right from the beginning, one of the hot topics on the site has been the site itself. Meta content has been some of the most important and popular content on Newsvine.

Now, we've got a place for those articles and seeds: the 'Not News' section. Content published to the 'Not News' section won't show up on the front page, but it will everywhere else. This will make for a more focused front page but still allow - and hopefully encourage - inventive uses for Newsvine.

From now on, Meta articles can be published to 'All of Newsvine', replacing the old Meta policy, but must be published to the 'Not News' category. This allows more visibility for Meta articles than the former method.

If you have examples or questions about what should go where, ask here and administration will discuss them with you.

Discuss this post

Jump to discussion page: 1 2

Hopefully this will end some of the arguments over having to belong to a "special" group to talk about Newsvine.

  • 8 votes
#1 - Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:14 PM EST
  • 9 votes
#1.1 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:03 AM EST

...but probably not, but jus guessin

it would seem as though everything "human" and "not news" shall continue to be further buried in drop-down "more" trees...and our ilk shall be relegated to the ranks of riff-raff not even beholden the dignity of a separate "NOT NEWS" tab...?

...ahhhh dare say M'Lord Vineness...banish such vile and wretched thoughts completely from your mind.

  • 7 votes
#1.2 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:48 AM EST

Oh, lighten up.

This is for Meta stuff, photography, writing exercises, recipes...that sort of thing. The stuff that really doesn't belong in the other categories.

Granted, it might not be the best possible name, but it should help get all the Community stuff out of the news categories, and that's a good thing.

  • 9 votes
#1.3 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:15 AM EST

It would seem then that over half the "normal" front page would be in this category ? Even what you find in the "News" is not "news" ? If I did an article on Sarah Palin passing gas would that be news?? By looking at the articles seeded that make it, I would have to assume YES even though by the description here it is under "it happens every day" .

  • 12 votes
#1.4 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:49 AM EST

....owee...? Ahhh ditn't realize I wuz I gettin "heavy" yer Vineness...jus sayin

  • 5 votes
#1.5 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:12 PM EST

Yeah, Lance! Up top!

  • 5 votes
#1.6 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:40 PM EST

Can't we create a poll to vote for a name?

I would suggest "The news you can't use." I believe our hero Brian Williams says "The news you can use."

When are we going to get Brian (Williams) as our CEO? Oh, I forgot, he or she will be coming from MSNBC ;-)

  • 1 vote
#1.7 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:30 PM EST

Dang it tyler!! I actually went there and wanted to respond to the article "Which Letter is your Favorite"!!!! Now, that would be not news, right ;-) LOL! Your a little @!$%# sometimes. (But I think you do a good job).

  • 3 votes
#1.8 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:18 PM EST

Oh great...not on the front page. Hrrrrmmmmm.... nice place to not show up on. The only place most regulars go. Also the "other" listing...might as well land your article in the newsvine recycle bin. Yea before you engage me with your rhetorical accounts of how many times you visit whatever page it is you visit. Your a minority here. Most only visit the front page. I tried the other pages once. Nothing....3 maybe four votes per article. If you don't post sensationalized seeds...That you ignore the warning to not post ....because ten others have already posted it. You get no traffic.Can you change that. Just flat out deny them the ability to post something that has been? Plus why do people show up on three slots of the polls with the same poll. By the same poll maker?

All in all....I will try it....I will see if it gets traffic.

Can I re-post an article here...errrrr whatever..... ?Like Dennis so rudely requested me to do. And then left without engaging in the premise. Which he took offense to. And I specifically told folks they would get deleted for posting their offenses on my electronic house walls.

  • 4 votes
#1.9 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 9:28 AM EST

Most only visit the front page. I tried the other pages once. Nothing....3 maybe four votes per article.

Maybe if people visited the other pages more often (and voted for / commented on content) we'd have a more diverse front page, instead of the same 10 people's partisan bull@!$%# seeds from the same 5 websites showing up all the time.

Just a thought.

  • 10 votes
#1.10 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 10:00 AM EST

I think it is because they have that one writer or seeder on a "watch list!" They never see another page to comment on it. I will start reading the ones not on this page or the front. Just to see what happens. I to do the front page only thing. I got tired of searching for something good to read. I will try. All I can do.

Lose the watch list "trap"....gain a more diverse front page.

  • 1 vote
#1.11 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 10:25 AM EST

Like Dennis so rudely requested me to do. And then left without engaging in the premise. Which he took offense to.

Could you perhaps link to whatever the hell it is you're talking about?

Lose the watch list "trap"....gain a more diverse front page.

A more diverse front page? You can put modules for anything you want on the front page. Any category, any tag, you name it. Hell, you can delete all the default modules and replace them with custom modules with CNN feeds, if that's what floats your boat.

How diverse your front page is is entirely up to you.

  • 4 votes
#1.12 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 12:05 PM EST

No Dennis.

    #1.13 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 1:36 PM EST

    No? No what? No you can't customize your page? No you won't link to whatever it was you were talking about?

    No what?

    • 3 votes
    #1.14 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 1:58 PM EST

    I, for one, would like to see diversity in the most active module, front page customization isn't going to help with that.

    • 6 votes
    #1.15 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 2:49 PM EST

    No amount of programming would help it either. People go where their interests take them.

    • 3 votes
    #1.16 - Fri Dec 3, 2010 3:00 PM EST

    Meta stuff, photography, writing exercises, recipes

    I get the meta not showing up on the front page, but photography and other miscellaneous stuff is some of the best original content the 'vine has to offer. I like the addition of the "not-news" category, but really it seems it would have been best to add "miscellaneous" and "meta" categories, where the "miscellaneous" or "not-news" would still have the chance to show up on the front page.

    • 3 votes
    #1.17 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:06 AM EST

    I don't care for the "not news" label, myself. It implies the category as unworthy of attention.

    But, that's just me.

    • 5 votes
    #1.18 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:55 AM EST

    Yup.

    • 5 votes
    #1.19 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:56 AM EST

    I've said that too in many of my previous posts.

    What's your opinion? Should a recipe be "Home and Garden" or "Not News?"

    • 3 votes
    #1.20 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:57 AM EST

    SS-CA-

    ...but photography and other miscellaneous stuff is some of the best original content the 'vine has to offer...

    But that doesn't make them 'News', it just makes them 'original content'. I agree that there are some very interesting photos and articles about photography being published...but that doesn't mean they fit into a definition of 'News'.

    Photos of pretty flowers or landscapes or your pet...aren't 'News', unless [and until] you can offer them in a way that is (1)- primarily factual and informational, and (2)- has application to a significant segment of the readership. If you can't, then they and the readers are best served by placing the photos in another category such as 'art', or as you suggested 'Miscellaneous'.

    CL1-

    'Recipes', 'Home and Garden', and 'Travel' are feature material, and 'Features' have a long tradition as a part of 'News'. Maybe they aren't 'Hard News', but they are still 'News' and not 'Not News'...at least that's the way I see it.

    • 5 votes
    #1.21 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:25 PM EST

    Dubbya,

    Thank you for offering your opinion. I really appreciate it! I'm going to leave my recent submission in H&G, then. :)

    • 2 votes
    #1.22 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:35 PM EST

    aren't 'News', unless [and until] you can offer them in a way that is (1)- primarily factual and informational, and (2)- has application to a significant segment of the readership

    Well then I think if we went off that definition, we would easily have 90% of the articles and seeds on newsvine needing to be recategorized as "not-news", as most do not offer facts, mostly opinion; but I would also argue that anything can have "application to a significant segment of the readership" since I'm sure many of the people on the vine have dogs or backyards, or something of the sort, so a "dog article" or "flower" article is very much applicable to their daily life, probably moreso then whatever the heck Palin said that day.

    Even the photo caption on this article is misleading, since I think a dog biting a man is very much news, perhaps small town news, but in the hands of amateur authors with little resources and time available, one usually doesn't expect viners to break major stories on the president, the middle east, or the next financial crisis (at best you get opinion articles), but things such as neighbors being terrorized by dogs, or other local issues are very much in the hands of small-town authors. And if its merely because something happens "frequent" or "previously" to make it not-news, then again, most the @!$%# that's posted on the vine isn't "news".

    It seems pretty subjective in what is and isn't "news", but I guess that's life, we're stuck with it so might as well deal with it; I have no problem with following the rules, but that doesn't mean I won't speak up when they could be improved.

    I agree that they should continue to be posted under the other sections if applicable, and using the "not-news" section as a last resort if your article doesn't fit into any of the other. I merely gave my feedback on the issue. I'm glad they at least were being thoughtful to meta users, but like I said, I think miscellaneous and meta categories would have been better suited, IMO.

    • 2 votes
    #1.23 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:11 PM EST

    ...if we went off that definition, we would easily have 90% of the articles and seeds on newsvine needing to be recategorized as "not-news", as most do not offer facts, mostly opinion...

    Notice that I included the bolded portions: "(1)- primarily factual and informational, and (2)- has application to a significant segment of the readership"...

    'Opinion' pages are the standard fare of most newspapers, and though they may not fit into a definition of 'hard news', most still fall under the 'News' umbrella. That's really not true of many of the long-winded amateur rants you sometimes see here.

    ...but I would also argue that anything can have "application to a significant segment of the readership"...a "dog article" or "flower" article is very much applicable to their daily life...

    It might, if it was written to apply to enough readers, and if enough of the readership were interested in it... But a blog-like post of either words or photos [or both] is unlikely to fit into that definition of news without a predetermined and significant audience waiting for it.

    I think a dog biting a man is very much news...

    It could be, but usually isn't...because of the commoness of the act. Unless there is another factor that gives it more interest...like that the man that was bitten was named Vick, or the attack was particularly vicious, or by a breed that's high in the public's awareness.

    Public interest drives what gets lumped into the news category more than any other factor, so yeah, you're right, it is frequently a subjective judgement.

    'Not News' is a crappy name, no argument from me on that. Maybe using print-media categories as a model would have been better, because it might help contributors to understand the often subjective difference between what is and is not News, and what they can do to change what they are posting to fit better under the 'News' umbrella better...assuming that's what they wish to do. Some aren't interested in that, and for them, having a 'Not News' category allows them to post without crowding out 'News' from the front page.

    • 2 votes
    #1.24 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:31 PM EST

    Thank you for offering your opinion...I'm going to leave my recent submission in H&G, then...

    Ya know...my little sister used to do that to me growing up...'But Mom! He said it was ok!'

    I feel so used ;-)

    • 3 votes
    #1.25 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:43 PM EST

    LOL.

    Yep, having brothers while growing up is where we learned our evil ways. ;)

    Used? ...Nope, just 'broken-in' and made to fit (like something from leather)...and that's a compliment. I learn a lot from you.

    • 2 votes
    #1.26 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:52 PM EST

    That's really not true of many of the long-winded amateur rants you sometimes see here.

    Again, the majority of newsvine articles ;)

    Articles can often be long-winded amateur rants. Seeds (think American Thinker or something of that sort) are really no different either. Newsvine has always been quasi-blog/news articles, and I think the "not-news" kinda highlights the difference in what everyone thinks newsvine actually is. Is it amateur or professional content only? Who counts as a professional? Half the professionals now are ill-informed and extremely biased hacks, so what really separates them from any "amateur" work? That sort of thing.

    Maybe using print-media categories as a model would have been better, because it might help contributors to understand the often subjective difference between what is and is not News

    Yes, but even in print media/newspapers, photoblogs, musings, that sort of thing are very often included. Some people toss them out, but others toss out the business section to get straight to the life, cartoons, and entertainment sections.

    I do love how something so simple as an additional category could spark such a conversation though, but I think that's the thing most people had liked about newsvine, they felt like they had a say, even if it is small, in what is newsvine.

    • 3 votes
    #1.27 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:28 PM EST

    ...the long-winded amateur rants you sometimes see here...

    ...Again, the majority of newsvine articles ;)...

    Well, I'd better clarify my statement by saying that I'm mostly referring to the political and religious arenas, but even in those areas I don't think it's fair to say 'the majority' are like that.

    ...Newsvine has always been quasi-blog/news articles... Is it amateur or professional content only?...

    It's not really the professional or amateur status, training or credentials that I was targeting with my statement...it's the 'rant' status that self-removes an article from qualifying as 'news' content, much like the ranting notes of the 'letters-to-the-editor' sections that appear in newspapers everyday. Even an 'opinion' piece should do more than just say 'I'm mad as hell', to qualify as a 'news' piece.

    ...Yes, but even in print media/newspapers, photoblogs, musings, that sort of thing are very often included...

    Now we're getting into territory where maybe we have to seperate the 'News' as profession, from the 'News' as business product. The 'Comics' are normally not providing professional 'News' content outside of OpEd, but they are part of the business product as pure entertainment...[not entertainment 'news' and not 'news commentary']. Sometimes, but not always, the same is true of 'photo-blogs, musings', and even twitter posts. It's how they are used, the content and it's relevence to society's issues that defines whether it's 'news' or a 'business model-entertainment strategy'.

    ...I do love how something so simple as an additional category could spark such a conversation...

    Me too. If everybody here agreed on everything, none of us would exercise our gray matter. Besides, the placid sameness of that would have half the people here going rambo inside of a week.

    • 2 votes
    #1.28 - Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:22 AM EST

    I don't think it's fair to say 'the majority' are like that.

    Oh I do. When for the past year the top seeds that have dominated the front page have been about Palin, O'Donnell, Pelosi, Republican, Democrat, they all tend to become "I don't like blah blah blah because blah blah blah", not really news, and definitely more along the lines of a rant. I've even done articles that I thought were complete BS to counter other BS articles, and they've been some of the most popular articles I've ever written and seeded. And then there's the issue of "news" being "new", if 40+ papers have covered the same damn story and they've all been seeded, at some point most of those aren't really "new" when they're seeded. But, we're getting entirely into semantics now, or was that what we were doing all along? Its late and I'm getting lost :) I just feel that really "opinion" is hardly "news" either since it rarely informs of new information, and really if we're going to get into semantics so much just to categorize our articles, we're going to find a lot of overlap and a lot of options lacking. And that's fine though, people can blah blah blah all they friggin want about whatever beaten horse they want, but if that crap gets a chance to be on the front page by default, so should original content that often times can be very popular as well so long as they get exposure. As much as seeding is an important part of newsvine, if they further hinder original content rather then promote it, many will probably just bookmark MSNBC, CNN, Huffington Post, or whatever on their own rather than come to newsvine just to be redirected. Its the vast "mixture" of it all that I think most really come here for, mixing blogs, newsite, social networking all in one. Some don't think it should be that way, some do.

    ALL I'm saying is that articles that people take the time to write, research, perform work on, edit, etc get the chance to show up on the front page. From my understanding, in the past newsvine merely didn't want its "meta" to show up on the front page, but because the category isn't just called "meta", its kinda hosting its own set of issues. When all is said and done, newsvine can do whatever they want, but many popular authors used it as a quasi-blog for great success, and this may be a move to hinder that original content.

    Finally,

    we have to seperate the 'News' as profession, from the 'News' as business product

    Newsvine is a business. Authoring on newsvine is a business (not a very lucrative one, but still, a business none the less). Crippling what is apparently important enough content that every major newspaper and news outlet carries just isn't a good "business" decision, since more are finding themselves on the opposite side of the branch, where they want to include MORE of that sort of stuff (hence Wolf Blitzer reading "tweets" and that sort of crap). All the news channels I see constantly urge viewers "send us your stories about the weather" and other mundane items because the reality is, many viewers enjoy that sort of stuff. News is very much interested in having amateurs share their experiences and lives because its cheap, relateable, and profitable.

    Well, its 1am here, so I should probably hit the hay; I apologize if anything isn't coherent :)

    • 2 votes
    #1.29 - Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:56 AM EST

    ...for the past year the top seeds that have dominated the front page have been about...

    The subject of the moment doesn't matter, they're topical, and popular topics will always dominate any front page, that is partly what 'news' survives on...but that's not really the problem is it? It's the sheer volume [and volume] of the pointless and shallow repetitiveness of the opinion-rants that lack larger purpose or point.

    They get overwhelming, and I see them burden my 'Newsvine Live' box and the whole front page at times, but they are still a valid part of 'news' content. A site that hires specific persons to supply specific amounts of content, can control the balance of material better. Our best bet here, with user driven and created content, is perhaps to vote with our feet, ignore the ranters and follow the more thoughtful opinion writers. They're here, but they may not get as much notice as they deserve. Perhaps it would be worth considering the creation of an 'Original Content' box on the front page, much like the 'Newsvine Columnists' box, limiting the content, and placing it high enough to gain greater notice.

    And then there's the issue of "news" being "new"...But, we're getting entirely into semantics now...

    We've been dancing in and out of professional 'jargon' at times, in our uses of the word 'News', and that can be confusing to some I suppose. Part of the problem is that what is defined as 'News' can change from one day to the next, depending on a variety of factors...and being 'new' isn't necessarily one of them.

    ...newsvine can do whatever they want, but many popular authors used it as a quasi-blog for great success, and this may be a move to hinder that original content...

    As a business, Newsvine /MSNBC/GE has a potentially great deal here, with content providers costing them a minimal amount for their creative work product...and in return getting a chance to showcase their talent. But that deal also comes with a caveat, because many providers are producing material that frequently eclipses the 'newcomers with potential', and the 'established oldtimers', who are both driven by the desire for quality and depth in their work...and who may walk away if they are ignored.

    ...All the news channels I see constantly urge viewers "send us your stories about the weather" and other mundane items...its cheap, relateable, and profitable...

    Right, all true, and all worthwhile. I'm not in disagreement with doing that either. Creating a public forum is always a good idea, I happen to enjoy seeing participatory journalism. [Creating one that intermixes advanced and beginning talent for the benefit of both is an even better idea btw, and we have the equipment to do that here].

    But the glaring difference between a TV or Newspaper offering a site for public submission , and Newsvine doing that, is that those media have a much more distinct separation between their paid-professional staff and the public invitees/submitters. You know who is who, staffers are well identified, and the amateur submitters don't over-ride the staffers in published content, or obscure the staffers content no matter how much material the amateurs pump out.

    ...I apologize if anything isn't coherent...

    You were, I hope I am too.

    • 3 votes
    #1.30 - Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:05 PM EST

    1. Newsvine, just as any business, is about image. Putting its 'best foot forward' is and should be a priority...the reason for categories, 'in addition to' an element of organization.

    2. Our input here is minimal in 'importance' to what constitutes their profits (ad revenue).

    • 2 votes
    #1.31 - Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:21 PM EST

    1. Newsvine, just as any business, is about image. Putting its 'best foot forward' is and should be a priority...

    'Image' is derived from the choice of content and style of presentation. So while I agree with what you're saying I'm wondering how you define 'putting it's best foot forward' in respect to the 'Vine?

    2. Our input here is minimal in 'importance' to what constitutes their profits (ad revenue).

    Sure. We are bait...to some degree anyway.

    • 1 vote
    #1.32 - Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:29 PM EST

    In reading your above discussion with SS-CA, I thought I was supporting your side of the argument, Dubbya, by implying that the most important/significant News of the day should be on the Front Page instead of User rant-style articles, personal Polls, silly questions used to get attention and votes, 'what I did this week-end' or Dear Abbey kind of stuff -- just my opinion.

    Yep, ..bait. As another Viner might say, ..And thanks for all the fish!

    • 1 vote
    #1.33 - Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:43 PM EST

    User rant-style articles, personal Polls, silly questions used to get attention and votes, 'what I did this week-end' or Dear Abbey kind of stuff

    If Newsvine is so concerned they should make sure to remove all user input from the front page. I didn't think I needed to point out the regular bullcrap that hits the front page, but apparently I do. If I made an article "Republicans are all morons and pedophiles", even if it only had about 2 sentences that were incoherent, that could hit the front page; I've seen many articles along those lines on the front page. Not really news by I think anyone's standards, but still, those are filed under the "news" category hitting the front page.

    And besides, say its Fourth of July, and a user submits an excellent recipe for chili or something. That could hit the front page in any news outlet, since its nuetral and relevant. I kinda take offense that you deem other articles as silly questions, rants, and mere attention getters, when for starters, the "news" categories are filled with such articles, but also belittles the work of many authors.

    Either way, like I've said before, it doesn't bother me much, life goes on. However, I think I'll discourage myself and others from using the category if it in the least fits into another category, since you can always "stretch" what belongs into a specific subject; say I want to do a writing exercise, but have the subject about a chair: bam, home & garden (not as though I'd do it, just making a point). I mean really, we're arguing semantics when all is said and done, hence the entire discussion to begin with; "not news" is incredibly vague, but if that's what floats their boat here, so be it, not like I can change it. But, meta can get stuck there, since it doesn't really fit into any of the others.

    • 2 votes
    #1.34 - Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:08 PM EST

    Ooops, sorry Dubbya, it looks like I was supporting SS... or maybe not. You both make good points, so maybe I'm agreeing with both of you.

    SS, yes, I knew you meant 'all' of it, not just the obvious, but the pretentious 'News' meant to berate, degrade the 'opposition' in an attempt to make themselves appear superior isn't Front Page News, imo, either. This is the reason the Not News section was created, it seems; yet, many can creatively get around it with these pseudo-satirical rants. ..My point isn't that many of these articles aren't well-written, interesting or don't deserve to be read -- many are very good, imo. My point is that they shouldn't be on the front page as a first-impression. Likewise, there are some great, I mean realllllly funny jokes and cartoons - but they shouldn't be the first-impression for a new User, either. ..Everything belongs in its proper category - to be both relative and easily found.

    • 2 votes
    #1.35 - Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:06 PM EST

    Also, I don't find "Not News" to be vague. It's simple in that if you read all of the current choices for a category and don't find one that 'works' for you, then choose "Not News." ...Add the appropriate tags, and you're set.

    • 3 votes
    #1.36 - Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:12 PM EST

    CL1-

    ...implying that the most important/significant News of the day should be on the Front Page...

    "Best", as in 'best foot forward', is a value judgement. That's why I wanted to clarify what you meant, and I agree with your statement above. But I don't want to drive inexperienced users away either; beginners have to have some wiggle-room to learn and grow. That's the problem with trying to find the right balance for a front page, to 'bait' visitors into staying, exploring, learning and developing themselves as well as the site; and to feature quality content without being overly restrictive to different approaches in style and substance as users find their feet. I want to see more visibility for user generated / original content, but only for the content that's of higher quality than unenlightening rants and pointless polls. Am I being clearer? Because I think we're all three on the same basic page. -42-

    SS-CA

    ...say its Fourth of July, and a user submits an excellent recipe for chili or something. That could hit the front page in any news outlet...

    Probably isn't going to get as much visibility as hard and topical news stories though. The front page of internet news sources function, and are designed around, different concepts of presentation and ranking than broadcast or print, who would likely only offer a bare mention that you could find the story/recipe further inside, which is how Newsvine would also handle it...a teasing headline.

    If I made an article "Republicans are all morons and pedophiles", even if it only had about 2 sentences that were incoherent, that could hit the front page...

    I'd usually ignore it just by virtue of the headline alone, and advise others do the same. Just because I want to see more visibility for user generated content doesn't mean I want greater visibility for ALL user generated content. Garbage is garbage, whatever the source.

    I kinda take offense that you deem other articles as silly questions, rants, and mere attention getters...

    What are you taking offense at? You haven't shown that she's wrong in her assessment, a lot of material is just as she described.

    ..."not news" is incredibly vague...

    Not as vague as any news linkage between chili recipes and the 4th of July :-P

    ...you can always "stretch" what belongs into a specific subject; say I want to do a writing exercise...

    A writing 'exercise' isn't news, it's an invented exercise so it goes into 'not news'. That wasn't so vague was it?

    • 2 votes
    #1.37 - Sat Jan 1, 2011 3:02 AM EST

    Its the new year, so this will be my last post on this articles, since I really don't see where this is going anyways, but thank you all for the discussion. At some point you just have to agree to disagree, or agree to agree, or something, I'm not really sure which way it is at the moment.

    A writing 'exercise' isn't news, it's an invented exercise so it goes into 'not news'. That wasn't so vague was it?

    Ok, the writing exercise could include how a user likes the style of a chair, or how that chair fits into a certain decor; that is very much "Home & Garden", yet probably isn't considered "news" by most definitions. But again, at what point is "abortion is wrong because..." no longer considered "news"? I don't really think its news, it probably says the same damn reasons that have been spouted thousands of times before, yet that still, by the newsvine categories, is considered "news". In fact, for all we know, that could have been a damn writing exercise. Here's a new title: Write A Response To Why Abortion is Wrong. Is it news, or a damn writing exercise? While it certainly would be filed under opinion, it could very easily be filed under the US News or Religion categories and I doubt anyone would have questioned it.

    Not as vague as any news linkage between chili recipes and the 4th of July :-P

    I don't know where you've been if you've never seen the vast amount of bbq and related subject matter for the Fourth of July, because in the many states I've lived and the many people I've met, fireworks and bbqing top the list for traditions on the fourth. If that's not a tradition you've ever seen associated, then I apologize, but its like saying there's no linkage between pine trees and Christmas. Either way, here's a quick google search resulting in almost a million hits for the subject:

    http://www.google.com/search?q=bbq+fourth+of+july

    if you read all of the current choices for a category and don't find one that 'works' for you, then choose "Not News."

    I agree, and that's what I've said several times already. I just said that the title "not news" is a case for arguing semantics; miscellaneous would have been far easier and made more sense, which is what I said in my first post. "News" is subjectively defined. But, like I've said several times as well, oh well, its not that big a deal, I'll just make sure subjects are put into the other categories if they're related there first, and I'll advise others to do the same. For some reason a discussion has been created around it, and while its been interesting, and I did honestly enjoy discussing with others, its quickly becoming a nowhere topic, hence this being my last post on the subject.

    Thanks all, and have a Happy New Year!!

    • 3 votes
    #1.38 - Sat Jan 1, 2011 5:05 AM EST

    SS-CA

    Ok, the writing exercise could include...

    It doesn't really matter what the writing exercise includes, it only matters that it was an 'exercise', [as in 'practice', not for real], which affects how the credibility of the story and content and writer are perceived. If you publish it as a 'News' story you will and should, be held to a higher standard in all respects than you would if it was unpublished, or labled as an 'exercise'.

    ...at what point is "abortion is wrong because..." no longer considered "news"? I don't really think its news...

    I'm getting a headache...I plead the Fifth (of JW Black), and all I can say is that sometimes pinpointing the difference between what does and does not deserve to fit into a description of 'News' is both splitting hairs and a subjective art. The NYT motto of "All The News That's Fit To Print"...is both totally accurate and completely false...depending on how you first define 'News', and how you limit content and coverage. In your 'opinion piece' example above...just because it's not new, doesn't mean it's not 'News' or 'Not news'...have I shared my headache yet?

    Write A Response To Why Abortion is Wrong. Is it news, or a damn writing exercise?

    Depends on how it's used and in what context. Got some aspirin?

    ...fireworks and bbqing top the list for traditions on the fourth...

    So? What you actually said was that 'user submitted chili recipes could hit the front page anywhere'... not ...'bbq and fireworks'. Chili recipes might be under the 'News' umbrella, but as 'feature material' not 'hard' news'. Tasty and traditional though it might be, a recipe is not good front page material, which is what you were suggesting. Besides...Blue Crab and Oysters are better ;-)

    Yeah, the discussion doesn't seem to be moving forward. Cheers, and I hope you have a great and Happy New Year too!

    • 1 vote
    #1.39 - Sat Jan 1, 2011 1:37 PM EST

    And you too CL1...Happy New Year!

    • 1 vote
    #1.40 - Sat Jan 1, 2011 1:47 PM EST

    Dubbya, 1.37 ---No, I didn't find any of your posts to be "unclear" and requiring additional explanation. You both were making 'some' of the same contentions. So, I was essentially agreeing with many of both of your points. The problem, somewhat, is as you point out (and I have always agreed) is 'interpretation.' What's important/significant News of the day to one, might not be to another. However, the guidelines in judgement that I'm using are pretty simple - our contributions are one of three things: 1. a seed/article regarding a News event that is found in the 'Media;' 2. a seed/article regarding News Opinion presented by the Media; 3. Personal opinion (as other). These are the current 'type' choices, and I think they are easy to understand - so what are we talking about? Just what 'deserves' to be on the Front Page? ...We all have our egos at the helm and want to think we are important, but we need to be honest. I see many not choosing "Other" as a 'type' and not choosing "Not News" as their category. It could be ignorance, or it could be 'ego.' ...and probably some of both. ;-)

    Dubbya - Thank you, and "Happy New Year" to you, too!

    • 2 votes
    #1.41 - Sat Jan 1, 2011 2:32 PM EST

    ...so what are we talking about? Just what 'deserves' to be on the Front Page?...

    What 'deserves' to be on the front page is obviously arguable, but I think it should be considered from time to time. SS-CA and I agree that there is a lot of good user-generated content that could be more visible. I'm sure a way can be found to accomplish that, but I question whether it can be done without creating a (1) specific place on the page to feature it, [beyond and in addition to the 'newsvine columnists' box], as well as finding some way to (2) limit what is featured in that space in particular, and on the front page in general. It's not really a matter of ego, it's a matter of considering what shows up on the front page to new users and 'drive-by' visitors that might interest them, beyond what they can get at any of many other news-oriented sites. It's also a matter of fairness to the many users here that produce good original content, and of keeping them from being obscured.

    • 2 votes
    #1.42 - Sun Jan 2, 2011 1:04 AM EST

    Dubbya, I do agree that "there is a lot of good user-generated content that could be more visible" and that, again, is a matter of opinion - as we have all agreed on.

    I'm basing my thoughts on that period of time at the beginning of this year when the impact of this issue seemed to be dominating the Front Page. There were several Users that were focusing on playful, chat-room, Facebook-style content that were attempting to alter the nature and premise of the site. I agree that much of it was fun. Yet, it was pointed out that it was destroying what the Founders of this site had worked so hard to 'create.' If this site lets the free-form nature of silly Polls, personal rants, and basicly just a place to 'hang out' become the attraction - then it becomes like every other social site out there - and it loses its uniqueness. I do believe that the site wants to encourage/attract visitors, but I also think it wants to attract visitors that are "news-oriented" - and many of the visitors that have been showing up since I've been here, have not been that 'personality type.'

    Obviously, the site encourages other venues in addition to media events, the reason that other categories were created. So, while I agree with you that some budding journalists should have a place to learn, grow and contribute -- I don't agree that 'personal objectives' (unless it's an essay regarding "News Event") should be focused on the Front Page which misconstrues the 'primary' objectives of this site, and the reason why I joined Newsvine in the first place -- an online "school" so to speak - and I thought it was really 'special.'

    The fun stuff is special to me, too. We all need to change gears sometimes. ..And, we can in the "Not News" section. It doesn't have to mean it's a lesser quality - it can mean it's just something different than the News and educational material. I think they are on the 'right track' with diversification and new categories. But I think they would be making a huge mistake if they let the Facebook-style content be their 'first-impression' to new Users.

    • 3 votes
    #1.43 - Sun Jan 2, 2011 8:11 AM EST

    ...while I agree with you that some budding journalists should have a place to learn, grow and contribute -- I don't agree that 'personal objectives' (unless it's an essay regarding "News Event") should be focused on the Front Page...

    If somehow I gave you the impression that I favored "Facebook-style content" ever being given more, [or even equal], visibility to 'News' and 'News-Opinion' content, be assured I don't. I'm really saying very nearly the opposite.

    • 3 votes
    #1.44 - Sun Jan 2, 2011 1:51 PM EST

    Dubbya, no, I wasn't saying [accusing] you of implying that you favor Facebook-style content. But then we are partially running into the issue of this discussion - interpretation.

    What I'm saying is: "good, user-generated content" [using your words] might be interesting, well-written, intelligent, etc., but not be a 'topic' that NV would want to 'present' themselves with...now do you see what I mean? e.g., a Not News article that might be titled, " I just found out my husband is gay " or " How being a Pedophile changed my life " --possibly not the best analogies, but I'm just trying to make a point going back to "image." ...and again, it's just imo.

    (with the point not being gay or pedophile so much, rather the point is the category of 'Not News' being on the Front Page)

    • 2 votes
    #1.45 - Sun Jan 2, 2011 2:31 PM EST

    Dubbya,

    Well, personally I think "beginners" will start here regardless of the Front Page content. We all make mistakes and learn somewhat by trial-and-error. After learning how things work, a User will either like the rules or not, and will stay or leave. ..Every cause has an effect, and it all works out in the end. ;)

    • 2 votes
    #1.46 - Sun Jan 2, 2011 4:07 PM EST

    Any chance the old meta policy of no posting to all of newsvine can be edited to have a link to the current policy?

    • 1 vote
    #1.47 - Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:25 AM EDT
    Reply

    So far the not-news section seems to have a lot of news articles.

    • 3 votes
    Reply#2 - Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:56 PM EST

    I noticed that... And I don't know how or why they went there...

    • 2 votes
    #2.1 - Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:31 PM EST

    I sure hope it's nothing but a glitch that will be fixed.

    • 3 votes
    #2.2 - Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:50 PM EST

    Yeah, and because this is now an official category, anyone who is electing to post something to Not-News that shouldn't be there (because it's news), will be asked to publish it appropriately. You can report anything that is published to it inappropriately as "Miscategorized."

    • 9 votes
    #2.3 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:14 PM EST

    Thanks Viki, I like it! "Miscategorized". Will it collapse an article though, or send a message, via email, to the poster to change it, and allow some time?

    Who knew that something that seems so simple could cause so many questions? I guess that's what happens when you are dealing with the likes of us =)

      #2.4 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:26 PM EST

      Thanks Viki, I like it! "Miscategorized". Will it collapse an article though, or send a message, via email, to the poster to change it, and allow some time?

      Historically, it doesn't do much if anything.

        #2.5 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:29 PM EST

        So far the not-news section seems to have a lot of news articles.

        I reported that as a glitch and Lance fixed it. The news articles that are still there are there because the authors had added 'not-news' as a tag.

        • 3 votes
        #2.6 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 5:29 AM EST

        It will collapse it if it gets enough reports. But reporting it means that staff will receive notification and will ask the user to re-categorize it.

        • 5 votes
        #2.7 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 8:22 PM EST

        What does a collapsed article look like? I don't think I have ever seen one.

        • 2 votes
        #2.8 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 10:39 PM EST

        Nothing. It looks like nothing.

        • 1 vote
        #2.9 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 10:42 PM EST

        You can't see it. If you commented on an article that has subsequently been "collapsed," (a better word would actually be "removed"), you'll get an notice that the article/seed has been removed.

        • 6 votes
        #2.10 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 9:38 AM EST
        Reply

        ....

        • 2 votes
        Reply#3 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:11 AM EST

        Hey, that not nice. I can read that rough stuff ya jest put-up there. If ya really are 'cookin',

        I got Riff & Raff here, could eat a horse, at least, how about even 1 little ole recipe.

        • 1 vote
        #3.1 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:15 AM EST

        eeewww...not even original, jus extra crispy.

        • 2 votes
        #3.2 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:16 PM EST
        Reply

        So, will we have a not news button from which to select in our categories? Will there be a prominent Not News button on the front page? So, I can go and publish the article index that I published last week, back to All of Newsvine, but label it Not News?

        I'm kind of confused. Again. Sorry!

        • 6 votes
        Reply#4 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:20 AM EST

        Look at the top of your page where it says "Top News, Local News, World, U.S., etc and to the right there is a "More." Under that you'll find the "Not News."

        • 4 votes
        #4.1 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:39 AM EST

        And you can easily make a module for the front page if you so desire.

        • 3 votes
        #4.2 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:05 AM EST

        Thanks, that will help! I'm sorry, I've been here almost 2 years and still can't seem to navigate at times...

        • 6 votes
        #4.3 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:20 AM EST

        Go to the 'not-news' section and grab the RSS feed. Then go to the front page, click 'add new module,' and put the rss feed in there...and there you go.

        • 4 votes
        #4.4 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:40 AM EST

        Dowser, you can also add the 'not-news' section to your watchlist. That might help make it more visible to you.

        • 3 votes
        #4.5 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:18 AM EST

        For some reason, the "watch" button doesn't seem to be working.

        • 6 votes
        #4.6 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:55 AM EST

        Yeah, I just noticed that too. I guess just like anything new, there are glitches to be ironed out.

        • 5 votes
        #4.7 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:58 AM EST

        Move around the button until you can click the link, it was in the upper left corner for me, worked just fine.

        • 5 votes
        #4.8 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:41 AM EST

        Ah ha! Persistence pays I guess. I finally got it too. Thanks Ben!

        • 3 votes
        #4.9 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:32 AM EST
        Reply

        Dowser, click 'More' in the upper right corner; it's in the drop down box.

        • 3 votes
        Reply#5 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:36 AM EST

        I think this is a good idea, solving a few issues that have been bugging many Viners for a while. Thanks for coming up with the plan, and for implementing it.

        • 3 votes
        Reply#6 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:17 AM EST

        So let me get this straight.

        If I publish the article:

        "I Already Ate, Mom"

        That will be "Not News"? Even though it could be framed under home and garden, opinion, human interest, ect...

        If I publish the article:

        "I Already Ate Mom"

        That will be news? Because it's sensational, different, and will get lots of attention...even though most people can't comprehend the difference in the two headlines and the misuse of grammar?

        LOL! It's always subjective as far as "news" is concerned. How many years of Brittany Spear's shenanigans did I have to tolerate as "news"???? Thank God Mica B got a promotion for saying it =)

        Meta was always a bit confusing... but I understood it to be stuff about Newsvine, specifically. Now we have to decide what is news-worthy? Big old bag of ? marks. What happens when there is a popular human interest story? Is it only "news-worthy" if it's extremely popular? Or will this end the possibilityof that? For several years now, our local news and cable news has included all of these in their repertoire.

        I'm really happy that I have certain friends and groups to draw on here. I will just post to those groups. Maybe that's the point...MSNBC wants to get rid of us? I love NV and will stay until it becomes nothing more than digg or some other random site with faceless, random users--just as MSNBC is with the Vine's technology. It's unfortunate, because that site is what drew me here, and I've found so many people that are truly invested in keeping the Vine alive. Oh well...Good idea, gone awry. I do completely understand that you can't please all of the people any of the time--good luck =) I sincerely hope you succeed!

        • 7 votes
        Reply#7 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:29 AM EST

        Hopefully, this will help to eliminate some of the confusion regarding "Meta" articles. They now belong to a much broader category that includes other stuff that's not "news."

        • 6 votes
        #7.1 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:16 PM EST

        I agree with you Viki.

        Most of the tiny bit of stuff I've posted isn't really Meta, and is Definitely not news. So, I think it's a good start, but there are a lot of articles that really could be news, given the right platform. I think this will make it difficult, to say the least, for new users to establish themselves. For those of us that have a "Posse" here, we'll be okay.

        • 2 votes
        #7.2 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:33 PM EST
        Reply

        I think I speak for many (even my co-irreligious folk) when I say:

        THIANK GOD!

        • 6 votes
        Reply#8 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:49 AM EST

        Praise the little baby Jesus.

        • 4 votes
        #8.1 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:22 PM EST
        Reply

        Ahhh, and the first thing I saw when I got to Not News is the following:

        Top Tags: AIR-JORDAN-FUSION-SALE | AIR-JORDAN-1-SALE | AUTHENTIC-AIR-JORDAN-SALE | ORIGINAL-JORDAN-SHOES | ORIGINAL-NIKE-AIR-JORDAN | ORIGINAL-VANS | JUMPMAN-SNEAKERS | JUMPMAN-JETER-SHOES | NIKE-JUMPMAN-SHOES | JUMPMAN23-SHOES | AIR-JORDAN

        NOT-NEWS SHOES-SALE-

        and the following seed: MSNBC anchor Joe Scarborough suspended for campaign donations (Breaking News)
        Now that is something New

        • 3 votes
        Reply#9 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:55 AM EST

        The new SPAM Site? Ehh? NICE. For the love of Peter, Paul, and Mary...

        • 5 votes
        #9.1 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:01 AM EST

        Well, that will make my job easier.

        • 5 votes
        #9.2 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:23 PM EST

        Hi viki

        • 2 votes
        #9.3 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:43 PM EST

        oops forgot my chelli hi there

        • 2 votes
        #9.4 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:44 PM EST

        Back atcha cm =) And a shout out to Viki too!

        • 2 votes
        #9.5 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:55 PM EST

        Hey chelli --- thought I'd say "hi" to you, not trying to be popular with that - just friendly. I've always tried to stay autonomous.

        I hardly ever see you, and I enjoyed the few chats we had...Just wanted you to know. (How things get misinterpreted is beyond me. :)

        • 3 votes
        #9.6 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:05 PM EST

        Hiya CL1,

        Good to see you too! I see you all over the place =) I'm sure we'll chat again sometime. No hard feelings here. Keep on keeping on!

        • 2 votes
        #9.7 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:49 PM EST

        I appreciate you saying that. Thank you.

        Really, I rarely see you! Sorry about that. I'll ditch the sunglasses.. and start paying attention. :P

        • 2 votes
        #9.8 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:57 PM EST

        Well, apparently you didn't know--I am the Invisible Woman! LOL!

          #9.9 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:18 PM EST
          Reply

          This article should be categorized as News Type: Meta ;)

          • 8 votes
          #10 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:41 AM EST

          You pop in just to drop that one Calvin? Nice lol.

          • 5 votes
          #10.1 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:51 AM EST

          This article should be categorized as News Type: Meta ;)

          heh.

          Category: Not News. News Type...um..

          • 4 votes
          #10.2 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:11 AM EST

          News about Not News

          • 6 votes
          #10.3 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:41 AM EST

          Probably my next crusade (which actually started years ago). News types.

          Event, opinion, other. (WTF is other?)

          How about Satire? Humor? Recipe? Stupid email my crazy aunt sent me?

          • 4 votes
          #10.4 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:06 AM EST

          Dennis,

          Do you work for and/or have some connection to Newsvine/MSNBC in a professional capacity?

          I'm only wondering because I've noticed for a long time now that you speak to everyone as if you were in charge of any-and-all Newsvine changes. Am I close? Getting warmer?

          Because of these changes, was that how Newsvine lured you to return?

          • 2 votes
          #10.5 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:26 PM EST

          No.

          But I knew this was coming more than a month ago, because it came from a suggestion I made. At the time I wrote to one of the tech guys and asked him about the feasibility of the idea. We wrote back and forth a few times...so I knew it was coming. Just didn't know when.

          • 1 vote
          #10.6 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:34 PM EST

          Other is the stuff that is not an Event nor an Opinion. It's not that hard. It's a pretty broad type.

          • 3 votes
          #10.7 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:24 PM EST

          i thought calvin and/or tyler indicated a year or so back that we would be getting categories soon for satire and fiction

          i still hope we get those. if memory serves when that was last talked about there was also at the discussion of what to call the category for those writing bloggy type stuff.

          i didnt know of this change - i avoid meta like the plague these days (i've found a direct correlation, at least for me personally, between how much time is spent reading meta and how enjoyable i find newsvine) - until I was just asked to recategorize a new writing exercise as not news.

          I'd always thought of some of those exercises as entertainment or fiction or satire but i can live with this change until we get fiction and satire as categories.

          • 7 votes
          #10.8 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 4:26 PM EST

          I think that the Not News category is a means of covering all of these things, including fiction and satire, that aren't necessarily "news" but no one wants to prohibit from Newsvine.

          As a writer, I'd love to see a fiction category, of course. Maybe someday. Right now, Not News is the compromise.

          • 10 votes
          #10.9 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 7:30 PM EST

          ok was just ensuring that wasnt still in the offerings one day but if that's the compromise-solution from staff i'll take it

          thanks for explaining, viki.

          • 2 votes
          #10.10 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 7:54 PM EST

          Regarding Viki Babbles Gonia's comment #10.9:

          I think it is a blessing that fiction and satire now are kept separate from news in the "Not News" category. Too often the titles of such articles can mislead a casual reader into thinking they are nonfiction, and they clutter up the news area.

          I do hope though that the "other" news category can be interpreted broadly to include all (or virtually all) nonfiction that is not "news" or "opinion" -- with the exception of meta articles about Newsvine.

          • 2 votes
          #10.11 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 8:12 PM EST

          While we're here, a serious inquiry:

          Do one sentence polls count?

          In other words: The headline is a question, and the article is a poll about the question.

          Not news?

          (Please, please, please, please....)

          • 7 votes
          #10.12 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 8:15 PM EST

          "What did you have for lunch?" --not news

          "Who are you going to vote for in the GOP presidential primary?" --news

          (Though this is probably something that could use some 'official-er' guidance.)

          • 5 votes
          #10.13 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 8:19 PM EST

          My argument against that -- and that's an answer I anticipated -- is that the person hasn't posted an actual news article, even if they say: "What do you think of Obama's trip to Afghanistan?"

          I think the category designation is (or should be) based on the content of the article, not the discussion that (may or may not) ensue.

          • 7 votes
          #10.14 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 8:26 PM EST

          spiff:

          (Though this is probably something that could use some 'official-er' guidance.)

          I would say "Not News" by rule regardless of the nominal subject.

          In fact, I'd ditch that worthless piece of @!$%# feature completely and then we wouldn't have to argue about it.

          • 3 votes
          #10.15 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 8:29 PM EST

          I think the category designation is (or should be) based on the content of the article, not the discussion that (may or may not) ensue.

          I agree, but I think the counter argument is that incredibly stupid polls with no associated content are posted every day by news organizations around the web (especially at local news outlets, but even on msnbc.com itself). "Prevailing institutional/professional standards," or somesuch.

          • 6 votes
          #10.16 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 8:29 PM EST

          In fact, I'd ditch that worthless piece of @!$%# feature completely and then we wouldn't have to argue about it.

          If we can kill chat rooms, we can kill polls! Someone write up a meta article that gets ignored for three years, stat!

          • 5 votes
          #10.17 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 8:32 PM EST

          I'm surprised polls are still an option, just because I can't see much of an argument in favor of keeping them, one that could be argued with a straight face, anyway.

          But, even if you get rid of them, people would just go back to hacking polls, like we used to do before we got "official" polls, and we'd still have one sentence articles and then a bunch of comments constituting answers that people could vote for.

          So, we'd still need a ruling on the not news or news question.

          • 3 votes
          #10.18 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 8:42 PM EST

          I think the category designation is (or should be) based on the content of the article, not the discussion that (may or may not) ensue.

          I completely agree with this, Brian Ford. The designation is made before the article is published, and therefore cannot be based upon the ensuing comments. It must be based upon it's content at publication time.

          jfxgillis

          In fact, I'd ditch that worthless piece of @!$%# feature completely and then we wouldn't have to argue about it.

          A large number of polls are worthless, I agree. Especially the one-liners under discussion here. However, I also find that when used as a supporting feature to a proper article they can be very informative. When there are tens or hundreds of comments on an article it can be difficult to work out how many individuals are involved in the discussion, let alone what the prevailing thought in the community might be. Polls give a rough estimate of both in a single glance.

          When used properly I like them.

          • 8 votes
          #10.19 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 12:19 AM EST

          dungbeetle:

          When used properly I like them.

          I will concede that in a universe of infinite permutation bounded by the laws of physics, it is indeed possible that polls are worthwhile when used properly.

          Ten monkeys at ten keyboards could also write Hamlet.

          • 3 votes
          #10.20 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 12:54 AM EST

          Ten monkeys at ten keyboards could also write Hamlet.

          Lol, fair enough. In return I will concede that I probably don't see as many of the worthless ones simply because I don't frequent areas where they are most prevalent. So my experience with them is less annoying than yours.

          This is an important thing to remember - every experiences the Vine differently, and something that is being used badly in your experience may well have a very good use in mine. However, I do understand that they are probably just being used for worthless crap to generate page views most of the time.

          • 6 votes
          #10.21 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 1:01 AM EST

          Obviously this is a nuanced question - but remember, we have all the tools we need to come to an informed consensus: here!

          • 5 votes
          #10.22 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 6:00 PM EST

          Mykola Bilokonsky! Where in the heck did you come from? Nice to see your name on Newsvine.

          • 2 votes
          #10.23 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 7:03 PM EST

          Good to see you, Myk

          • 1 vote
          #10.24 - Tue Dec 7, 2010 12:10 AM EST
          Reply

          There seems to be some confusion as to what goes in this new category, and what doesn't...so here goes. This came out of a suggestion I made a while back, that we have a new category for meta articles.

          That article and discussion is here.

          At the time, I sent this to one of the staff members in an email:

          I wrote an article suggesting a site improvement, and I'd like you to take a look and weigh in on it's feasibility from a technical standpoint. The idea is to make meta a Category, but with no front page module, along the lines of Religion, Environment, Home & Garden, etc.

          The benefits:

          • Invisible to people just here to read news.
          • Members could create modules if they want one.
          • Meta could be published to All of Newsvine, but still not appear on the front page.
          • No group to join (people have been whining about being excluded).
          • The category could be watchlisted (right now there's no way, as not everyone uses the meta tag).
          • The category could be filtered out of Newsvine Live, and other front page modules.

          I can't think of any drawbacks at all.

          My intention, once we got a meta category, was to suggest a second category for photos, recipes, poems, jokes, etc. Apparently Newsvine anticipated that and just decided to lump all of it into one category.

          This one.

          I think it's great, and will get all the community stuff off the front page, leaving that area for news stories, as it was meant to be.

          • 4 votes
          #11 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:25 AM EST

          Dennis, there is nothing in Newsvine Blog's statement above about photograpy not going to the Arts category. Why would we change it to Not News?

          • 7 votes
          #11.1 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:42 AM EST

          Well, there is this:

          That's never been its only purpose. Newsviners have used the site for everything from writing exercises to finishing long sentences to digging through each others' photo albums.

          But you're right. I see no problem with posting photography to the Arts Category. In fact, I've suggested it before.

          My concern was really all the meta stuff, and this should fix that.

          • 6 votes
          #11.2 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:47 AM EST

          Well, the example he gave was Synthesis' article about your 80's image, that was about Newsviners, not photography. At least that's the way I would interpret it.

          But you're right. I see no problem with posting photography to the Arts Category. In fact, I've suggested it before.

          Good, neither do I. Thanks!

          • 8 votes
          #11.3 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:50 AM EST

          LOL -- so what tags exactly should the NV Photographer's group use. I've been using other and entertainment.

          • 7 votes
          #11.4 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:54 AM EST

          I would use Category: Arts, News Type: Other.

          • 6 votes
          #11.5 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:57 AM EST

          I would use Category: Arts, News Type: Other.

          That's what I would use too.

          • 6 votes
          #11.6 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:21 AM EST

          Thanks Dennis and Rottlady. So I don't have to click "not news" for Weekend Exposures?

          • 6 votes
          #11.7 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:24 AM EST

          Weekend Exposures?

          Assuming you're talking about photography, no.

          But I guess it depends on just what you're exposing...

          • 4 votes
          #11.8 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:40 AM EST

          Yes, I move for photography going to 'Arts' and not 'Not News'. I don't want to even think about the complaints that would come into my box...

          depends on just what you're exposing...

          Weekend Exposure is like Foto Friday, cept it's on the weekend, for those who can't make the Friday deadline.

          • 4 votes
          #11.9 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:44 AM EST

          Weekend Exposure is like Foto Friday, cept it's on the weekend,

          Well, damn. There go my illusions...

          • 3 votes
          #11.10 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:45 AM EST

          The group is still learning, but hopefully we'll get some exposés that don't belong in the 'Arts' section in the future. Baby steps.

          • 6 votes
          #11.11 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:45 AM EST

          Yikes! Thanks Ben for clarifying. I'll be very careful about what I'm exposing! LOL

          • 2 votes
          #11.12 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:11 PM EST

          Post photography to Arts as a category.

          • 1 vote
          #11.13 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:24 PM EST

          ok so why would photography go to arts as a category and not, say, fiction be it a story or a story writing exercise?

          There may be a distinction but, if so, i'm missing it.

          • 3 votes
          #11.14 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 4:35 PM EST

          and before someone notes that writing execises were mentioned in the article i'd note photography was as well

          and dennis connected the two here

          This is for Meta stuff, photography, writing exercises, recipes...that sort of thing. The stuff that really doesn't belong in the other categories.

          I'm fine with it not being on the front page but also want to ensure it does not get balkanized

          • 1 vote
          #11.15 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 4:49 PM EST

          Scott:

          Frankly, the distinction is to a certain extent arbitrary. It used to be, for example, that fiction was a regular feature of what we now call the "news media." But not anymore, not for 80 or 100 years or so.

          As I suggest below, "Feature photography" still is an established news category. The Pulitzers give prizes in it. The Boston Globe specializes in it. Journalism schools give degrees in it.

          We didn't invent those conventions, we merely inherited them. And like all inherited customs, they can be dismantled on rigidly rationalistic grounds. But we have to draw lines somewhere, and wherever it's drawn there's bound to be borderline cases.

          • 4 votes
          #11.16 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 4:59 PM EST

          Well, I think a distinction could be made even within photography. Yes, photojournalism exists. That doesn't make every photo project an example of photojournalism. There will be some gray area, to be sure, but if a photo project is strictly an artistic endeavor and doesn't arguably advance a journalistic message, I would tend to prefer it be categorized not-news than arts. The main reason is that if every artistic article starts to flood the arts category, news about the arts gets pushed out.

          With fiction, I think the rational question is: "Is fiction ever news?" Sure, one can have news about fiction, but is the fiction itself ever news? (Insert joke about Fox News--or your favorite "lamestream media" organization--here.)

          • 7 votes
          #11.17 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:07 PM EST

          That is a clarifying statement spiffie.

          • 2 votes
          #11.18 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:21 PM EST

          spiff:

          There will be some gray area, to be sure, but if a photo project is strictly an artistic endeavor and doesn't arguably advance a journalistic message, I would tend to prefer it be categorized not-news than arts.

          Yeah, me too. But that's exactly the kind of fuzziness I don't want to get into as a user/net cop/jackass.

          Sure, one can have news about fiction, but is the fiction itself ever news?

          The only example I can think of in the recent past is for the occasional roman à clef like Primary Colors.

          • 3 votes
          #11.19 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:22 PM EST

          Well there's a big difference between an embedded photographer in Kandahar province and a guy taking pictures of a butterfly. Nothing fuzzy about that.Then there's landscapes, or portraits. Again, nothing fuzzy about those.

          • 2 votes
          #11.20 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:29 PM EST

          You know me, I'm all about fuzzy standards. ;-)

          • 3 votes
          #11.21 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:33 PM EST

          "Is fiction ever news?"

          It's news until it's fictional nature is discovered. Then it's fictional nature becomes the news. But strictly speaking, I can't think of any story, [by either words or photos] that doesn't have to be factually based to be considered 'News'. What's the old line?...'news is just history while it's still happening.'

          • 1 vote
          #11.22 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:36 PM EST

          " That doesn't make every photo project an example of photojournalism. There will be some gray area.." --good point spiffie. Somewhere along the way, I tried to argue (not in the NV Blog site) that very point regarding just about every topic. ..even 'writing' isn't always writing --sometimes it's specifically narrative, other times it's reporting, other times interpretation, other times personal experience -- so, to me, there are times when an Author's direct essay could be news and other times it will be not-news.

          • 1 vote
          #11.23 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:36 PM EST

          Dubbya, you make a good point as well. There are very few "facts" as proven Historical events; and even then, 'truths' can be manipulated. So, really, everything is just fantasy or fiction - until proven as fact.

          • 1 vote
          #11.24 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:42 PM EST

          ...big difference between an embedded photographer in Kandahar province and a guy taking pictures of a butterfly. Nothing fuzzy about that.

          If they're both telling stories, then their both 'News', consider the population threats to the Monarch Butterfly as an example. How's that for adding fuzziness magz?

          • 2 votes
          #11.25 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:44 PM EST

          CL1-

          There are very few "facts" as proven Historical events...

          Historical accounts aren't always accurate, neither is the 'News'. But unless the writer/photographer is intentionally lying it's still history or news. The reporter's competence is a separate matter.

          • 4 votes
          #11.26 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:52 PM EST

          thanks for the clarifications. i was posting comments as i read down and later came across your explanation/distinction which helps.

          If i was in a grumpy mood i'd ask lots of questions because I could foresee some gray areas but I think i'm ok with just moving all of fiction into not-news. the writing exercises DO sometimes include memoir in addition to fiction and poetry (which i note is, like photography, not being moved to not-news) but that's a) the exception and b) i think it'd be best to just say "ok, this all sounds fine."

          i'll repeat, though, my suggestion i make below - that another solution that's been discussed is having a category for fiction, for satire - which would make it easier for fiction writers and readers to find that stuff.

          • 2 votes
          #11.27 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:57 PM EST

          To make sure I have this correct, the writing exercises are to placed in the Not News category and poetry is placed in Arts, right?

          I see one as learning to express and the other as 'expressing' the Art.

          • 1 vote
          #11.28 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 6:04 PM EST

          I would prefer original poetry to be not-news, as well. IMO the arts category should be for news about the arts. Showcase groups ought to be the place for original non-journalistic work.

          • 4 votes
          #11.29 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 6:15 PM EST

          so, to me, there are times when an Author's direct essay could be news and other times it will be not-news.

          Some are 'Not News, some are 'Arts', some photojournalism - definition will depend on the content... guess I could try to police it somewhat.

          • 5 votes
          #11.30 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 7:05 PM EST

          spiffie - thinking more about this, I agree, writing exercises and poetry should probably go together as 'not-news.' "News" implies "reporting" - so reporting about the Arts separates it as a specific category.

          Ben - hopefully, it won't become a burden for you or other group owners, and some could get their feelings hurt. I hope not.

          • 3 votes
          #11.31 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 7:40 PM EST

          @ 11.

          • 1 vote
          #11.32 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 7:45 AM EST

          My bad. I was going to respond to Dubya and Spiffie.

          Yes, pictures of Monarch butterflies would be news if it was captioned or is part of an article on the epic migration of these creatures and how current environmental phenomena affect this species.

          Spiffie, poems from dead poets are not news. Crit of work by dead poets is news. Poems by poets who are still alive and are still putting out material is news, just as much as Lady Gaga's newest release.

          • 2 votes
          #11.33 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 7:56 AM EST

          I would say that a story about Lady Gaga's new release or a review of her new release or an interview with Lady Gaga is news. The release itself is not.

          Also, I agree with you on the Monarch butterflies.

          • 4 votes
          #11.34 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 10:43 AM EST

          I'd say new poems from dead poets would be news. :P

          • 3 votes
          #11.35 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 11:17 AM EST

          Come on spiff...Guns n' Roses puts out a new album and that wouldn't be news?

          • 2 votes
          #11.36 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 12:15 PM EST

          An article about Guns'n'Roses new album would be news. Posting the tracks themselves (at least not without further comment) would not be news. See the difference?

          • 3 votes
          #11.37 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 12:18 PM EST

          spiff:

          Unless you had an exclusive or semi-exclusive or breaking-news-type clip?

          I forget whether it was Abbey Road or the White Album, but I have a vague dope-addled memory of a Beatles release being news as such. Similarly, Harry Potter excerpts were treated as news as such at one point or other, again, memory is vague but it's age-addling, not dope-addling this time.

          • 3 votes
          #11.38 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 12:27 PM EST

          Unless you had an exclusive or semi-exclusive or breaking-news-type clip?

          Right, but probably covered by "without further comment." I'm thinking "Exclusive! Pre-release preview!" is in itself a kind of comment expressing newsworthiness. I'm not asking for a New Yorker length expose; I'm just asking for a reasonable framing to place the work within a news-ish context.

          • 3 votes
          #11.39 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 12:35 PM EST

          spiff:

          Well, let's say you attend a live concert and get grainy bad-audio but exclusive clips (of the sort with which Youtube is littered)?

          • 3 votes
          #11.40 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 12:42 PM EST

          With me as final arbiter, I'd want to see some (even the vaguest) comment/review of the show. "This show by X band in Joe Schmoe Townville last night was great! Here's my favorite part." Of course, I'm not final arbiter, so this is likely one of those gray-ish areas that I love so much which will require some form of community-standards development.

          • 5 votes
          #11.41 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 12:53 PM EST

          spiff:

          Agreed.

          so this is likely one of those gray-ish areas that I love so much which will require some form of community-standards development.

          Ha! You can't fool me, you're engaging in that community-standards development right now on this very sub-thread, aincha?

          • 4 votes
          #11.42 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 1:00 PM EST

          No time like the present, as they say.

          • 4 votes
          #11.43 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 1:03 PM EST

          Gee, I dunno, but if Axl Rose were to drop a new track on Newsvine (assuming the tech was there in the first place), and he registered as a user first, and he makes no conditions or ads, i.e., download the track for free, I dunno. That would be news, even it were art (?).

          • 2 votes
          #11.44 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 1:17 PM EST

          I think it would still be Not News. It's not "Reporting" about the Art itself.

            #11.45 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 1:29 PM EST

            It's definitely not news that Axl Rose is at a point in his career at which registering as a newsvine user and hawking his wares would be a step up.

            • 1 vote
            #11.46 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 1:47 PM EST

            Yeah, most (or all) of the Photographers' articles are not 'reporting' about the arts and most every one is categorized as Arts. I don't want us to push off the arts news at week's end, though somehow I doubt that a dozen or so photography articles are going to push everything off, since the AP gets priority and 'The Vine' section is a mix of seeds and articles (but I'll check on Friday evening to see what it looks like).

            I can work to get my folks to categorize more appropriately, because there are articles that go in other section, like this one and this one, but since Viki said that photography goes to Arts, I'm not putting myself in a position where I'd anger anyone by saying their article belongs in 'Not News'.

            Maybe there should just be a 'Feature Photography' category. ;)

            • 4 votes
            #11.47 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 2:15 PM EST

            Ben, (just love to opinionate in this topic for some reason- hope that's Ok with you)--- the reason why I see Photography, in general, as News is because it is 'reporting' an event, so to speak. ..imo.

            To me, displays of an excursion, field trip or vacation - would be News, but a display of my garden wouldn't be --- I wonder what others think??

            ..Trying to categorize the efforts could sometimes be borderline either way, but I wonder if some are going to get their feelings hurt feeling they are being categorized as less significant - could be, but I guess that might be how it has to be.

            ..Sometimes I wonder if the whole Photography category should be 'Not News' just to simplify the issue and spare feelings. One the other hand, if Photography of all kinds were to all be called, "News" then aren't the others that are in creative endeavors (writers and poets) going to feel slighted? ..Maybe the answer is to change the name of the "Not News" category to "Community information and events" ??

            • 2 votes
            #11.48 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 2:45 PM EST

            In a lot of cases, photography is about the most "pure" reporting there is. "Pictures don't lie."

            For me, though, photography would have to pass the "I know it when I see it" to be news. Someone posting pictures of their kids, because their kids are cute? Not news.

            Someone posting pictures they took when they saw Fred Phelps spreading his hate at a funeral? News.

            And, of course, the test becomes that much easier when there's content posted alongside the pictures, for added context. If those pictures of someone's cute kid are posted because the kid was going through some serious cancer surgery, and the story is all about attempting to navigate insurance hassles -- suddenly it's news.

            • 3 votes
            #11.49 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 2:50 PM EST

            To me, displays of an excursion, field trip or vacation - would be News, but a display of my garden wouldn't be --- I wonder what others think??

            *Hem*

            *Haw*

            Depends. :-D

            Do I think pictures of your family on a beach somewhere are news? Nah, not really. Do I think a travelogue featuring pictures of scenery and other attractions (restaurants, resort features, etc.) could be news? Sure; there's a pretty long history of travelogues. There's a lot that will depend on framing and the context given.

            • 4 votes
            #11.50 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 2:53 PM EST

            spiff:

            *Hem*

            *Haw*

            Depends. :-D

            One of the oldest general-interest news periodicals in the world (by some accounts, the oldest) has a gardening column/feature and probably has had it for most of 190 years or so.

            • 3 votes
            #11.51 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 3:20 PM EST

            11.50 ---I agree with both you and Brian. I see the defining difference between News and Not News as reporting an 'event' in the context of a 'noun' - an important person, place or thing.

            jfx --- So, maybe all gardens are created equal? Or, is there some defining difference that separates one from another? Special treatments being displayed or a 'how to' presentation would seem more like reporting to me, but a display of my tomatoes seem different to me (somehow -lol).

            • 3 votes
            #11.52 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 3:21 PM EST

            Sure. But I think there's an amount of context and framing that go into those articles that make them value-added for the reader/consumer. It's not "look at my rose bush" stuff. It's "let me tell you, quite extensively, about my rose bushes and why these rose bushes and why you might like to have rose bushes like my rose bushes."

            There's a blog I follow called Houzz which one could argue is more a photo-blog with a home design focus than anything else. But each entry is themed with a collection of photos with blurbs that provide the context placing those photos in the given them. I'm not saying "no roses" or "no living rooms" or "no family beach pics." I'm saying if that's all you're offering, I fail to see "news" (even in its most general definition) angle.

            You won't trap me in your hard rule trap. I know this territory too well to fall into it. ;-)

            • 4 votes
            #11.53 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 3:37 PM EST

            spiffie - yes, I've acknowledged the "context and framing" as important criteria, too. Brian's analogy was exemplary in how a picture of one's child in a photo could be seen in a different context if they had cancer with an associated cancer treatment scenario making it an 'event.'

            So, yes, my "tomatoes" analogy could become News if they were offering a 'how to,' or a better way to plant, or a better way to water ..and so on. That would definitely be putting a tomato garden in a different context.

            I understand your point about Houzz, and the other topics --- and that's pretty much the same thing I'm saying as well. ..A photo can have importance/noun significance, depending on how it is presented.

            No hard rules are my goal -- just something 'clear' and easily understood by all to prevent some of the issues we're currently seeing regarding the Front Page.

            • 3 votes
            #11.54 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 3:51 PM EST

            The bit about the trap was for jfx. We have a disagreement about rules enforcement that goes about four years back now. :-)

            • 4 votes
            #11.55 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 4:00 PM EST

            Ah, Ok, ..thanks, lol. (It sounded like you were talking to someone..)

              #11.56 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 4:05 PM EST

              CL:

              Special treatments being displayed or a 'how to' presentation would seem more like reporting to me,

              Funny, because that's pretty much exactly what the gardening column does.

              spiff:

              But I think there's an amount of context and framing that go into those articles that make them value-added for the reader/consumer.

              Too late!! Trapped already. That is a hard rule.

              • 3 votes
              #11.57 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 4:07 PM EST

              "An amount" is pretty squishy, so it makes for a squishy rule.

              • 4 votes
              #11.58 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 4:35 PM EST

              spiff:

              Spongy on the outside with a nugget inside.

              Like a baby in a king cake. (You live close enough to Cajun country to get the reference?)

              • 2 votes
              #11.59 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 5:12 PM EST

              Yeah. "Hey, so hiding a choking hazard in our food is a good idea, right?" And people wonder about us Texans. :-)

              • 3 votes
              #11.60 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 5:20 PM EST

              Nope, it's never going to be clear, nothing ever is:

              1. I think that if someone is attempting to educate on any given topic, then it can be considered 'news' and should go to its appropriate category (Travel, Home & Garden, Environment, etc), despite how well it "adds value" (many are very much still learning, their articles should improve over time).
              2. I think that if the narrative of an article is directed at the community, it's Not News, though I feel like a lot of folks don't realize that there's an audience outside the Newsvine community.
              3. I think that if photo-essay contains a number of images, and the author discusses how an effect, composition, etc, lends to an image, or is generally conveying artistic information, or is doing a feature like the 'Santa makes children cry' Jack linked to from Life, it's Arts.
              • 6 votes
              #11.61 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 5:25 PM EST

              spiff:

              Last I saw, commerical bakeries don't bake the baby in, the give you the baby and you insert it.

              Still, don't you think the companies should be liable for facilitating such a hazard?

              • 2 votes
              #11.62 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 5:29 PM EST

              At any rate, the Photographer's group members are very much open to suggestion (since it's a 'learning' group of sorts) and I've been wanting to nudge them forward in some way. Since I already read the content and comments and check the tags, I'll probably start leaving comments like, "If you added [this] to your article, you could put it in this category and probably get a few more hits." And really, I think anyone that cares about improving content should be leaving comments like this.

              • 4 votes
              #11.63 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 5:36 PM EST

              Good points, Ben, that if teaching is the premise, then the photoessay should be under a new category, possibly. True, expecting a "clear" guideline is too much to ask when everything just depends on...

              Your three enumerations in 11.61 makes sense to me. Discussing the merits of an Art or how to improve the art or create special effects (as A. Mac), are definitely part of the category, as you point out in your #3, and should go under Arts, imo, too.

              That should be very helpful in understanding categories, as well as increasing exposure, if you have the time to leave the participants various suggestions. That's very nice of you!

              • 1 vote
              #11.64 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 6:57 PM EST

              You can include artistic how-to's (how to create a Jesus image on grilled cheese, etc) in number 3, too.

              That should be very helpful in understanding categories, as well as increasing exposure, if you have the time to leave the participants various suggestions. That's very nice of you!

              I guess I have a strong sense of 'community'. I'll do it for the same reason why I just spent a good portion of time shoveling my corner walk thoroughly to the drains (an extra foot or two, on both sides, of compacted snow to shovel), four or five feet out the street all the way around the walk and cutout, despite the snow plows having done an awfully terrible job this time, creating more work for me, and no one else at the intersection, and having done the exact same thing yesterday.

              The 'Handy Capable' folk in wheelchairs, walkers, etc, should be able to use our public walkways in the winter, and it's really irritating, etc, to know that they aren't able to. To me, this is a responsibility that comes with owning the corner lot. Few owners do, so I sort of make it a point for it to always be done.

              I also am very much a 'public servant' in my 'professional' life.

              • 5 votes
              #11.65 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 9:03 PM EST

              Ok. ..Thank you.

              Your sense of community shows in many ways. Your neighbors must immeasurably appreciate you. :)

                #11.66 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 9:38 PM EST

                I think that if someone is attempting to educate on any given topic, then it can be considered 'news' and should go to its appropriate category (Travel, Home & Garden, Environment, etc), despite how well it "adds value" (many are very much still learning, their articles should improve over time).

                I've been rolling this one over in my head for a while because I think we agree on this point very much, but I want to make sure that I'm not coming across like I'm putting down anyone's contributions. When I talked about adding value earlier, I used several fairly low bars for entry because I really feel that the bar should be low, especially for new users. I think this is what you meant (in that how "well" someone adds "value" is less important than that they attempt to do so, even in some very small way).

                Also, "value" in this context could use some further discussion. What I mean by "value" is maybe better expressed by "interest." When I talk about family beach photos, those photos obviously have value for the family in question, and may also for their circle of friends. They may even hold some small degree of interest to friendly strangers, but in the main they're not going to be very interesting to the broader Newsvine community, even plausibly. That's fine; lots of "news-y" submissions to Newsvine don't "interest" the broader community, per se, which is one reason I hesitate to use "interest" in this context, too.

                What I'm trying to say with value/interest is that a "news-y" submission should make an attempt (even a small one!) to expand the submission's appeal beyond that of simply the seeder and his friends (or even beyond the appeal to members of Newsvine alone). To me, that's the essence of true value of news: things I'd be interested to know. There is, very much so, an educational aspect to all forms of news and news-like things.

                End rambling.

                • 3 votes
                #11.67 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 9:54 PM EST

                I think this is what you meant (in that how "well" someone adds "value" is less important than that they attempt to do so, even in some very small way).

                I feel like there's somewhat a fear of having your articles labeled as 'not good enough'. But I think: As long as you have put forth an honest effort, it is good enough.

                .. for the most part. The articles should get better over time.

                • 3 votes
                #11.68 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 11:23 PM EST
                Reply

                Woohoo! Now I just have to remember.

                • 5 votes
                Reply#12 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:27 AM EST

                I am having trouble trying to get the correct RSS feed to work, which one do we use to put a Not News module on the front page?

                Maybe someone could detail how to do this for everyone? I always get confused....

                • 4 votes
                Reply#13 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:54 AM EST

                I used the Wire and Vine feed from that page.

                This one: http://www.newsvine.com/_feeds/rss2/tag?id=not-news

                • 5 votes
                #13.1 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:00 AM EST

                Thanks Dennis, I finally got it to work as well.

                • 4 votes
                #13.2 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:02 AM EST
                Reply

                Just to make sure. Articles about Newsvine itself like this one.........will be and have to be published under the " not news" section?

                That means no longer " meta " as a tag and Metavine will dissapear right. I hope this article has been given a prominent place somewhere elsewhere because not everybody reads the articles on Metavine.

                • 3 votes
                Reply#14 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:33 AM EST

                Articles about Newsvine itself like this one.........will be and have to be published under the " not news" section?

                Right.

                That means no longer " meta " as a tag and Metavine will dissapear right.

                Not necessarily. People might still use meta as a tag, and since Metavine is a group, whether it stays is up to the group owner. But both are now superfluous and no longer necessary.

                I hope this article has been given a prominent place somewhere elsewhere because not everybody reads the articles on Metavine.

                The Newsvine blog is on every members watchlist by default.

                • 3 votes
                #14.1 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:44 AM EST

                Not necessarily. People might still use meta as a tag, and since Metavine is a group, whether it stays is up to the group owner. But both are now superfluous and no longer necessary.

                That's not really entirely true - both differentiate meta articles from recipes etc, and as such are useful to those of us who like meta articles.

                • 3 votes
                #14.2 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:58 AM EST

                Yeah, good point.

                That's why I wanted a category just for meta. I'm not interested in all that other stuff.

                • 3 votes
                #14.3 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:02 AM EST

                The Newsvine blog is on every members watchlist by default.

                True. This article didn't show up though. Neither can I add the " not news " section onto my watch list. It's still early, forgive me but if I want to write an article about let's say " The tracker is not working". Do I tag it still as meta, publish it to Metavine ( as long as the group exists ), publish it to the " Not News" section and uncheck from it " All to Newsvine"

                Or, do I tag it as meta, publish it to " All of Newsvine " and " Not News " and Metavine?

                • 3 votes
                #14.4 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:12 AM EST

                The latter. There's no reason to uncheck 'all of newsvine' any more. Ever.

                Just make sure you put it in the not news category. The tags and groups are up to you.

                Neither can I add the " not news " section onto my watch list

                Button doesn't seem to be working. I'll send in a bug report.

                • 2 votes
                #14.5 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:16 AM EST

                Thanks Denni.

                • 3 votes
                #14.6 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:01 AM EST

                Metavine as a group won't go anywhere. It's still quite useful to collect articles (and seeds, when appropriate) that are specific to Newsvine. Not-news includes other stuff that's not necessarily Meta. Which is why "Meta" is not the new category, but "Not-News" is.

                • 5 votes
                #14.7 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:48 PM EST

                Anything that makes your jobs there at NV easier.............and this is great, and I have to say I am laughing........good job on this article. Voting it way UP!!

                • 1 vote
                #14.8 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 3:28 AM EST

                Metavine as a group won't go anywhere.

                Good. Hi Vicky, how have you been?

                • 1 vote
                #14.9 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 8:09 AM EST

                I've been fine, Henry. Busier than usual, actually, so I don't have as much time to participate on the public side these days!

                • 2 votes
                #14.10 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 8:25 PM EST

                The latter. There's no reason to uncheck 'all of newsvine' any more. Ever.

                hooray !

                  #14.11 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 4:50 PM EST
                  Reply

                  From now on, Meta articles can be published to 'All of Newsvine', replacing the old Meta policy, but must be published to the 'Not News' category. This allows more visibility for Meta articles than the former method.

                  There should be a banner, lol! This is big news (imo) and should be on the front page for at least a day, maybe two days. What a wonderful development!

                  • 2 votes
                  Reply#15 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:36 AM EST

                  Breaking: Magz De-Friends rottlady for Alleged Dog Bite: NewsVine in Shock!

                  Dennis McCann: "I told him not to bite the rott, that's all a guy can do...::

                  rottlady: "My dogs are the sweetest in the world, so one ate his (magz) burger, so what?"

                  Lauhal: "Feed him (magz) to the dogs."

                  Synth: "There are parallels to this in ancient Mayan hieroglyphs."

                  Nearing: "This so breaks my heart. Dennis, do you think I should make a tapestry about it, big brother?"

                  jfxgillis: "I never liked that bastard (magz) in the first place..."

                  WaltD: "No contest. Give me the rott any day."

                  No comment could be obtained from the perp as Newsvine cat lovers have him in seclusion.

                  Category?

                  • 9 votes
                  Reply#16 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:58 AM EST

                  Sensational category I'm sure....

                  Ha! Magz, you better leave my rotties alone. I'll have to sick Tedd on you. *grins*

                  • 6 votes
                  #16.1 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:24 AM EST

                  I heart magz!

                  • 5 votes
                  #16.2 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:50 AM EST

                  ROTFL! Magz, I think I'd like to read more of your articles! LOL

                  • 4 votes
                  #16.3 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:56 AM EST

                  Category?

                  Home and Garden?

                  • 3 votes
                  #16.4 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:45 AM EST

                  Hello. Am I on air?

                  Good morning Viners. Scott 'Scoop' Butki here reporting from an undisclosed location for an exclusive interview with now current Newsvine outlaw magz.

                  Butki: So what's it like being on the lam magz?

                  magz: I dunno. What shoudl I call you? Scott? Scoop? Butki?

                  Butki: Mr. Butki, magz.

                  magz: Ok Boopsie. Well I really need to give a shout out to the cat lovers out there who have saved my behind from the relentless comment and article collapses. Dowser, you my peeps babe.

                  Butki: Its Mr. Butki magz. Anyway, is it true? Did you attempt to mangle one of rottlady's rotts with your bare teeth?

                  magz: Boobie, what would you do if you saw a big bite on your burger that does not correspond to your own bite mark and then smell burger breath from a certain rott? I just saw red, well, chocolate and brown in this case.

                  Butki: Let's try Scott. I, and most other folk on the Vine don't consider biting civil magz.

                  magz: Look, Braut, I'm not making excuses here. My lawyer wants me to stick to the burger side of the story.

                  Butki: Scoop, okay? Do you have any parting comments for the people who feel that you have betrayed them?

                  magz: Yes Mr. Butki. I would just like to say that just because you're a Viner, it doesn't mean that you're beneath protecting your burger.

                  Butki: (sighing) Thank you magz.

                  magz: No, thank you Katie, and they're right, you do have the best calves in the business.

                  fadeout as Scott Butki begins to hammer magz on the head with his mic at the undisclosed location...

                  • 9 votes
                  #16.5 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:04 AM EST

                  Rotts are just Big puppydogs...

                  They probably smelled the meat on your breath magz, and wanted to lick it off

                  • 7 votes
                  #16.6 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:54 AM EST

                  hey thanks for the biteout, er, shout out.

                  • 1 vote
                  #16.7 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 4:52 PM EST

                  heh

                    #16.8 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 5:24 PM EST
                    Reply

                    Hee, hee, hee! I finally got my opportunity to bring up Hitler in a comment. I don't believe I ever did that before. Here goes: Hitler, too, thought he was the one who should decide what was news and what was not. Hitler, too, categorized much of the internal and derogatory information about his regime as not news. Or at least forbidden from the Press.

                    To those who keep up with things news does not remain as news for long. News is only for the uninformed, the ignorant, the unaware. News is information that is not known when published. News is a little, no, a lot, like beauty. Only beholders can describe it.

                    Now, in case someone thinks I am equating certain Newsviners to Hitler I am not. Goebbles, maybe. What I am trying to do is make certain Stick-in-the-Muds wash the beam from their eyes and see the writing on the wall. Any Editor, no matter how uninitiated, can decide what to publish in his/her document as news. Only the end user can discern what is news and what is not.

                    It certainly will be wonderful. I can see the day rapidly approaching. It is just around the corner. Soon Newsvine will evolve into one of the finest pieces of proprietary journalism in the World. Soon, all the naysayers, all the people who want to evade open scrutiny, all who want to propagandize and direct the news will be tied down in certain Groups. They will finally decide to wall off or pigeonhole themselves into the great vast wastes of Meta and allow the rest of us the broad plains of Newsvine for real News.

                    • 5 votes
                    Reply#17 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:18 AM EST

                    Jerry, you get emails from my crazy aunt too??

                    • 3 votes
                    #17.1 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:51 AM EST

                    Current online and social network mores, customs and rules allow for strange things. I may very well be your crazy aunt, Dennis. But, when you are ready to stick to the thread I will converse with you on the subject. ROFLMAOAMM!

                    • 3 votes
                    #17.2 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:56 AM EST

                    I really don't think this is that much of a change, we were already expected to distinguish between "News", "Opinion" and "Other". Yes, I know people have always wondered what the hell "other" means, and this refines it and addresses the question. Newsvine has always primarily been aimed at news, and I truly believe that this simply defines it slightly better.

                    • 4 votes
                    #17.3 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:24 AM EST

                    Jerry likes to gripe about what constitutes meta. He's been doing so since day one.

                    • 5 votes
                    #17.4 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:27 AM EST

                    If it's primarily about Newsvine it's meta, it's a fairly simple concept for 99.9% of articles.

                    • 4 votes
                    #17.5 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 1:36 AM EST

                    Jerry, is your point that the more stuff that is not really journalism that is moved off the front page the better because then true journalism - which I would hope include my author interviews (i sure hope those are not also considered 'not news') - would be, at least in theory, more prominent and visible? if so i can get behind that if it works out that way

                    if i'm misunderstanding you please clarify or correct me.

                    as you know i'm with you - i may be more writing more journalism on newsvine than anyone - mostly these days interviews with famous authors - but i've found i get more traffic talking about tv shows than books so i stay off in my own corner talking about books and tv and play happy though i get lonely sometimes

                      #17.6 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 4:56 PM EST
                      Reply

                      .

                      • 8 votes
                      Reply#18 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:50 AM EST

                      Welcome to NotNewsVine.

                      meh....

                      • 6 votes
                      Reply#19 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:58 AM EST

                      I think this is a good thing, Raat. Get's all the meta and other non-news stuff off the front page. Makes it invisible to those who don't want to see it, and more accessible to those who do.

                      • 4 votes
                      #19.1 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:49 AM EST

                      Dennis, please don't pigeonhole me as a MetaGriper. I am OmniIngracious about much more than Meta. My comment was not even directed to the Meta portion of this article. It was, rather, pointed toward still another fragmentation of Newsvine contents. We keep digging deeper and deeper holes and they tend to widen and expand to the point where they are entities unto themselves. I am looking forward to the day when the holes come together, amalgamate and swallow the entirety.

                      Besides that, if you tell everyone about me then the newbies won't go back and read my old articles.

                      • 5 votes
                      #19.2 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:02 AM EST

                      Dennis, please don't pigeonhole me as a MetaGriper.

                      Jerry, it's far too late for me to do that.

                      Besides that, if you tell everyone about me then the newbies won't go back and read my old articles.

                      Attention newbies: Read Jerry's articles. They're worth reading.

                      • 5 votes
                      #19.3 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:20 AM EST

                      definitely read jerry's pieces - they're good and he's NOT a meta griper. Now spell check - he does like to send time griping about spellcheck...

                      :)

                      • 1 vote
                      #19.4 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:05 PM EST
                      Reply

                      So, by "everywhere else" you mean it'll be posted to:

                      1. The "not news" category page
                      2. The user's column
                      3. Any selected groups

                      So, the added benefit -- the extra exposure -- is that meta is now posted to a category, whereas before it would have only been posted to 2 and 3? Good idea.

                      Also:

                      I'm seeing some confusion above: Is this basically a category for META, or does it encompass other content, as well? I only ask because I think you risk seeing people trying to tell other people that their seed or article "ought" to be posted to Not News. People (with good intention) may improperly police content.

                      If the former (or even if the latter) a suggestion:

                      Call the category: Not News (Meta)

                      People have spent years educating new members about what Meta is, so it seems wise to make sure that everyone ties that education to this new category.

                      Also, I've updated my new primer.

                      • 4 votes
                      #20 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:53 AM EST

                      Well, I'll be damned. Brian Ford.

                      Brian, this came out of an article here. Basically, they took this suggestion and lumped some non-meta stuff with it, and called it not-news, but overall it's an implementation of the idea suggested in that article.

                      So yeah...for all intents and purposes, it's a meta category.

                      • 2 votes
                      #20.1 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:58 AM EST

                      uh, huh, the little boys have a new play thing. I think they should take this whole episode to Facebook and come back when they grow up.

                      • 2 votes
                      #20.2 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:05 AM EST

                      Hi Brian. Nice to see you again!

                      You just asked the question I had after reading the article at the top.

                      I gathered this is a - new name for "Meta" content, and that the purpose of this "not news" section is to give Meta content a category of its own.

                      This will be Meta content only - everything else will still have to fall under another heading. That's my understanding. I hope someone will correct me if that's wrong.

                      I would think photography would go under Arts, and that Food would go under Entertainment, right?

                      Ahhh, Dennis just posted above me saying that some non-Meta is lumped with it. Where is the post that defines what belongs in or constitutes a "Not News" category?

                      • 1 vote
                      #20.3 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:06 AM EST

                      Right. I mean, this seems like an idea that's been bandied about for as long as I can remember. But you've not really answered my question:

                      You've said "some non-meta stuff" but haven't said what that stuff is, nor does the article. (Or any other comment, so far as I can see.)

                      Which is why I think this will lead to confusion.

                      Polls? Some polls? Just polls with no content? One sentence articles? If the rule is as vague as "some non-meta stuff" then I'm afraid this will lead to a lot of problems.

                      • 2 votes
                      #20.4 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:06 AM EST

                      You've said "some non-meta stuff" but haven't said what that stuff is, nor does the article.

                      I haven't said, because I don't know. I'm not the cyborg, I didn't write this article.

                      What I do know, because I received an email last night, is that this is an implementation of the idea I presented in my article, but they went with 'not-news' rather than any of the names suggested there.

                      And if this is any indication...

                      That's never been its only purpose. Newsviners have used the site for everything from writing exercises to finishing long sentences to digging through each others' photo albums.

                      It would appear that they also have things like writing exercises in mind for this category.

                      So it's a meta category, though I'm guessing it would also be a good place to put stuff like recipes or writing exercises, that really don't belong anywhere else.

                      • 2 votes
                      #20.5 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:16 AM EST

                      It would appear that they also have things like writing exercises in mind for this category.

                      To me, a Newsvine writing exercise IS meta. The articles themselves may not be, though.

                      Recipes should go in Home & Garden.

                      My concern, really, is that I've never seen a debate about what is or is not news that has ever ended in any sort of agreement. (The general rule of thumb that almost everyone agrees on whether they'll admit it or not: If "I" wrote it...it's news.) Those debates usually involve shouting. I love the idea of a meta category, but I'm not sold on the idea of subjectively designating other non-meta content as "not news" when, in most cases, there are existing categories that work just fine for that content.

                      But, if there's IS a more specific guideline, I'd love to hear it. Because, I'm all for dumping stupid polls off the front page. :)

                      EDIT:

                      Though, I guess it does appear as though "personal" meta also applies, upon closely reading the opening of this post: In other words, meta content about ourselves. ("Eight things about me" or "goofy pictures of me -- share yours!")

                      But, I just see those as an extension of or variations on meta content.

                      • 2 votes
                      #20.6 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:26 AM EST

                      Eh, we're never going to get hard and fast rules on this stuff.

                      As far as I'm concerned, this is the Meta Category I was hoping it would be.

                      • 2 votes
                      #20.7 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:34 AM EST

                      I don't think we need hard and fast rules, necessarily. But, if I'm Tyler, I don't want to deal with people sending me emails every day about how so and so posted such and such to THIS category, when it SHOULD be Not News.

                      Here's what's going to happen with this category: It will work great as a meta category (or at least as well as the old policy) (so, yay!) but no one will ever use it for anything else. So, why bother with the anything else?

                      Maybe my wife's library sciences education is rubbing off on me, but bad categorization doesn't seem any better than no categorization.

                      • 1 vote
                      #20.8 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:45 AM EST

                      Here's what's going to happen with this category: It will work great as a meta category (or at least as well as the old policy) (so, yay!) but no one will ever use it for anything else. So, why bother with the anything else?

                      Right, and that's fine with me.

                      • 2 votes
                      #20.9 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:53 AM EST

                      Okay, good.

                      Now, if I could get someone that actually knows some answers to answer, we'll be getting somewhere. I'm very clear on what you want out of this. I'm still not clear on what THEY want out of this.

                      • 1 vote
                      #20.10 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:03 PM EST
                      • 1 vote
                      #20.11 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:07 PM EST

                      Dennis. With all due respect: If I thought your answers were sufficient, I'd have stopped making queries about three comments ago. I don't. So, maybe someone else will answer, and maybe someone won't. Maybe THEY will say that the policy is exactly what you envisioned, maybe they won't.

                      But, I won't know that until THEY respond. The only thing I have to go on, right now, is a vague introductory paragraph and the fact that they didn't choose to call it a "meta" category, instead choosing "not news" which seems to broaden the scope from your original idea. I don't think those are questions you can answer.

                      • 1 vote
                      #20.12 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:17 PM EST

                      I'm still not clear on what THEY want out of this.

                      ... for people to stop their bitching? :-)

                      • 7 votes
                      #20.13 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:19 PM EST

                      You might want to follow the links, Brian. They implemented the idea exactly as suggested. In my thread we suggested names, but they picked a different one. That's the only difference.

                      • 2 votes
                      #20.14 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:24 PM EST

                      I followed the links. I'm not sure why you'd think I hadn't. Lance's comment says that you suggested a "meta" category and they opted for a "not news" category instead. I'm not quite sure how that qualifies as exactly. My goal is merely to find out what -- IF ANY -- difference there is.

                      My questions, which you still aren't able to answer, remain.

                      Hell, you admit that you don't know the answers to my questions, so I guess I'm not sure where you're going with this?

                      I haven't said, because I don't know. I'm not the cyborg, I didn't write this article.

                      Can't we just wait for someone who *does* know to respond? As I've said: I know what you know.

                        #20.15 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:52 PM EST

                        I defy anyone to come up with an article, even a comment, that would provide me heretofore unknown (to me) material that could be posted to this new category or Group of Trash Can that we seem to be discussing. Who knew what and when? Sounds like news to me. I don't think some of you know what the meaning of is is. This is getting ridiculous. Dennis, do a story on how the wikileak leak is going to cause problems in Turkey. Brian, what do you have on the Gates/Buffet gallop into the Far East? I thought we all wanted the Newsvine Community to grow and become influential. In order to do that we will have to do some newsworthy things so we can put them up front.

                        • 2 votes
                        #20.16 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:03 PM EST

                        Brian, seems to me it's already been answered:

                        Right from the beginning, one of the hot topics on the site has been the site itself. Meta content has been some of the most important and popular content on Newsvine.

                        Now, we've got a place for those articles and seeds: the 'Not News' section.

                        So it's a meta category. I don't see a name change as a big deal.

                        • 2 votes
                        #20.17 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:03 PM EST

                        What's the debate, Dennis? You've admitted throughout this thread that this seems to involve MORE than just meta. I'm just not sure why you care that I'm asking for additional information, given that they say this:

                        If you have examples or questions about what should go where, ask here and administration will discuss them with you.

                        I have questions, and I'm asking them here. I don't trust that you know the answers or I'm not satisfied with your answers. You're not "administration". So, unless someone who IS administration is feeding you answers -- at which point I'd be confused -- I'm not particularly interested in your take anymore.

                        If this is about you getting credit for the idea, fine: You can have credit. The idea has been around for as long as I can remember and has been suggested by about 50 people, but if you want credit for it, you can have credit. It doesn't matter to me. I don't quibble with the need for a meta category or your success in spurring them to consider it, finally, after all these years.

                          #20.18 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:16 PM EST

                          The more I think about this, "Not News" as a category might work really well. This says to me that as far as the Staff is concerned - they are 'more' interesed in categorizing what is news, than what isn't.

                          Or in other words - if a whole bunch of stuff gets lumped into this that might actually belong somewhere else, e.g., was put in arts, but belongs in H&G, ..they don't really care. They just want to make sure it is separate from what really is news. Is that what you all think??

                          • 1 vote
                          #20.19 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:16 PM EST

                          Brian:

                          It will work great as a meta category (or at least as well as the old policy) (so, yay!) but no one will ever use it for anything else.

                          Au contraire, mon ami, at least, not if I have anything to say about it, which I will because I'll make a point to be a pain-in-the-ass about it, which, you may know, I can be when I want to be.

                          Two things. First, when I see articles of the type you so cruelly but hilariously described in your last article (was it "flirty middle-aged women and dirty old men"?), I intend to join the thread to suggest it be categorized as "Not News."

                          Second, when I see writing articles, such as the Writing Down the Bones example used above, I intend to join the thread to suggest it be categorized as "Not News."

                          If you come back more regularly, you can be a pain-in-the-ass, too. Won't that be fun?

                          • 5 votes
                          #20.20 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:16 PM EST

                          Two things. First, when I see articles of the type you so cruelly but hilariously described in your last article (was it "flirty middle-aged women and dirty old men"?), I intend to join the thread to suggest it be categorized as "Not News."

                          Thank you, Jack. That's precisely my point. I'd want to do that to. My question is: Would our being a pain in the ass have merit, if so on which articles, or would we just be driving Sally and Tyler nuts with something they'll never enforce?

                          They just want to make sure it is separate from what really is news. Is that what you all think??

                          I like that idea, and it makes sense, but it doesn't address the enforcement issue of people who improperly categorize stuff that SHOULD go here, elsewhere. Or what that stuff actually is.

                          • 1 vote
                          #20.21 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:26 PM EST

                          Oh, oh, seems a monumental battle may be in the offing. It appears there is a gathering of the Old Boys and they are going to thrust shafts at each other in an attempt to establish some kind of turf status. Where oh where are Celestina and Aine when I need them? How I long for Keld Bach! Calvin, why did you have to leave me with this mess?

                          • 2 votes
                          #20.22 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:27 PM EST

                          Pretty much, I think people like and need simple. Once people learn of this category, I think it will be such that a 'whole bunch of things will get put here' and will not get put in the category they belong.

                          ..But what will get accomplished is that it 'did not get put in any category meant to be news.'

                          What becomes important then.. is do they care that important Meta material might get lost in the mix of other things?

                            #20.23 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:34 PM EST

                            Brian:

                            Would our being a pain in the ass have merit, if so on which articles, or would we just be driving Sally and Tyler nuts with something they'll never enforce?

                            Yeah. Frankly, I pretty much agree with CL in the response in comment #20.23. Once people get the hang of it, I bet most people will pick up the habit.

                            Out of, I dunno, say a hundred times I was a pain-in-the-ass about the meta policy, only maybe two or three times was it disputed. A dozen times or so people were literally introduced to it by my comment, so I tried to steer 'em right, and the rest of the time folks were like "Oh, okay."

                            As for Sally and tyler, dunno how much lurking you did, or moderation-lurking, but they've both been surprisingly active on the "type/category" enforcement the last couple of months. (I expect they'll bust me for it sometime, actually, since I always try to hybrid "News" and "Opinion" anyway.) I doubt staff engagement will be an issue.

                            • 3 votes
                            #20.24 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:46 PM EST

                            As for Sally and tyler, dunno how much lurking you did, or moderation-lurking, but they've both been surprisingly active on the "type/category" enforcement the last couple of months.

                            I really only kept up on the bigger blowups.

                            Ultimately, while I do think a meta category is good, I'm not particularly impressed by category system at all. I agree with CL1 that simple is best and I think there's some stuff here that serves more of a behind the scenes point than anything having to do with effective categorization. I'd probably start from scratch if I had my way. Which, of course, I don't.

                            In the end, I didn't really expect my questions to be a big deal, though. I assume someone will pop in and cover them in a paragraph or so, at which point I'll have the "official" explanation.

                            • 1 vote
                            #20.25 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:30 PM EST

                            I thought we all wanted the Newsvine Community to grow and become influential.

                            Jerry - thought we went way past that point years ago. Now, it's merely Meta. I mean NotNews. I mean...whatever they mean.

                            • 2 votes
                            #20.26 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:20 PM EST

                            You've admitted throughout this thread that this seems to involve MORE than just meta.

                            Well, it will, once you and Jack get done convincing people that "flirty middle-aged women and dirty old men" articles, "writing articles, such as the Writing Down the Bones" and "fart polls" aren't news.

                            Hell, anything that gets the non-news stuff off the front page is cool with me.

                            • 4 votes
                            #20.27 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:52 PM EST

                            Hell, anything that gets the non-news stuff off the front page is cool with me.

                            I think you know I agree, but my goal is to avoid telling people something that won't be backed up by a moderator later. In other words, I've been falsely called a "net-cop" enough to not want to give people reason to think I'm making up rules to enforce.

                            • 2 votes
                            #20.28 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:56 PM EST

                            I think it's somewhere to put their fantasy football stuff...

                              #20.29 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:13 PM EST

                              for the record, i'd agree that writing exercises are not news - in the past i'd called them news opinion or other (whatever other means) - i just want to ensure that when i'm asking people to write satire or fiction pieces about the holidays it doesnt then get lumped in as meta. thus my repeated requests for satire or fiction categories.

                              • 1 vote
                              #20.30 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:06 PM EST

                              It's not Meta. But it's not NEWS. So it should be categorized as "Not News." Meta is also not news, so is in the same category.

                              • 6 votes
                              #20.31 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 7:36 PM EST

                              I definitely think (and have always though) that Newsvine "challenges" (announcing them) count as meta.

                              • 2 votes
                              #20.32 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 8:17 PM EST
                              Reply

                              Is this also a safe way to suspend viners who screw up because this is confusing as hell?

                              What if some of us end up seeding a "not news" article to all of newsvine unintentionally?

                              And where do we get to "bitch" like maybe I just did? Where do we go when we need advice about NV from the guides and other viners? Will there still be a "meta" group?

                              • 2 votes
                              #21 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:03 PM EST

                              Is this also a safe way to suspend viners who screw up because this is confusing as hell?

                              Aw damn. You caught on.

                              What if some of us end up seeding a "not news" article to all of newsvine unintentionally?

                              Everything can be published to all of newsvine now. We never have to uncheck that pesky box again.

                              And where do we get to "bitch" like maybe I just did? Where do we go when we need advice about NV from the guides and other viners? Will there still be a "meta" group?

                              Just publish all meta articles to the 'not-news' category. As for continued existence the group, that's up to the group owner.

                              • 3 votes
                              #21.1 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:18 PM EST

                              For some reason I equate "all of newsvine" and the front page as being the same. You see a lot of articles that aren't necessarily "news" but are still worthy of being on the front page. I would also think it would be boring for some new people to look at the front page and see basically nothing but politics of some kind or another.

                              I've personally seen NV as a great alternative to facebook. That was then.

                              So you say if we gripe about some things going on NV, it could go all over the vine? I would think it would disway some newbies who assume NV is only news stuff.

                              And how are they going to find out about the great famous writers who don't write about politics and other news that make it to the front page? Some aren't going to waste their time staying. You have to devout a lot of time to NV in order to make any serious money. At least that's what I've read a lot.

                              And of course the groups will suffer because the new viners won't really see them advertised unless they go to the group directory.

                              Wow! This is a sad day!

                              • 4 votes
                              #21.2 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:25 PM EST

                              Yes. I, too, am quite disappointed.

                              • 2 votes
                              #21.3 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:28 PM EST

                              I would also think it would be boring for some new people to look at the front page and see basically nothing but politics of some kind or another.

                              The front page is customizable. You can put any modules you want there, including one for this new category.

                              So you say if we gripe about some things going on NV, it could go all over the vine? I would think it would disway some newbies who assume NV is only news stuff.

                              No, but you no longer have to uncheck all of Newsvine. Doing so kept articles off the front page. Putting them in this new category accomplishes that without unchecking the box.

                              And how are they going to find out about the great famous writers who don't write about politics and other news that make it to the front page?

                              The same way they do now. Most of the existing categories are not on the front page by default, yet people find, and read them.

                              And of course the groups will suffer because the new viners won't really see them advertised unless they go to the group directory.

                              How is that any different than it's always been?

                              • 3 votes
                              #21.4 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:40 PM EST

                              I concur, and I would like to know Newsvine's definition of "news" as it pertains to the "Dennis" rule.

                              I'd say that Dennis has succeeded in getting his way, and for whatever reason, Newsvine will lose some "truly" nice people. Earlier, someone asked if Newsvine/MSNBC were trying to get people to leave, and indeed, this article answers that question.

                              • 4 votes
                              #21.5 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:40 PM EST

                              It is Newsvine... not seeing how this will affect the front page much though. As I understand the borg's words here, the new category only affects meta articles, content already not allowed on the front page, and articles that aren't necessarily news or meta, such as group activities like Butki's Writing the Bones (and Newsvine Photographers monthly photo challenge/photo tag), contest announcements like Newsvine Survivor/Last Viner Standing, group (new group announcements, here are your group guidelines/rule changes, we have a new moderator, etc) and community announcements (so and so had a baby/got married/passed away, etc).

                              • 5 votes
                              #21.6 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:18 PM EST

                              I agree with Ben Josephs. Honestly, I don't think that this is actually a change at all. The rule has always been that the site is primarily for news content, this simply gives the other stuff it's own place (rather than having to choose between News, Opinion and Other to try to separate it out).

                              Newsvine was never supposed to be an alternative to Facebook, any more than a horse is an alternative to cherry blossoms. They're completely different things, and saying that this new category destroys what you were using the site for simply means that you weren't using it for its stated purpose. That's hardly the fault of the Vine or MSNBC.

                              • 7 votes
                              #21.7 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 1:40 AM EST

                              Newsvine was never supposed to be an alternative to Facebook, any more than a horse is an alternative to cherry blossoms. They're completely different things, and saying that this new category destroys what you were using the site for simply means that you weren't using it for its stated purpose.

                              Well said.

                              When I wrote the article that led to this, I said the following:

                              We currently have twenty categories on Newsvine, ranging from US and World News, to Politics, to Entertainment, to Religion, and almost everything in between...but we have no clear place to publish Meta and Community issues.

                              It's time we did.

                              And now we do. This doesn't ban any of the content currently being posted to Newsvine, it simply gives us a place to put all of it.

                              • 3 votes
                              #21.8 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 5:37 AM EST

                              So then, what's changed?

                              For example, I'm getting ready to post an article regarding a controversial subject. I've never done that, before, so am I still allowed to use the regular categories already in place?

                              Also, I see Brian Ford has returned. What a surprise.

                              Yes, I realize I sound like a little piss-ant, and call me a loon, but I have this thing about truth, and the moment Brian Ford's blog was seeded by Viki, many of us knew the reason for it, and I think it insulting that Newsvine preferred to play the part of the Rainmaker.

                              So, now that the three of you have manipulated people to get your way, what's going to happen to those who write original work? Those who prefer creative writing as opposed to a news event or opinion. Will it still be considered "News Other?"

                              • 3 votes
                              #21.9 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 11:54 AM EST

                              So then, what's changed?

                              What's changed is that we now have a category for all the meta and community stuff that we didn't have before. It no longer has to be kept out of 'all of Newsvine.' It no longer has to be put in certain groups, so no one has to complain about having to be a member of a group to see it.

                              Also, I see Brian Ford has returned. What a surprise.

                              Yeah, I was surprised too. Nice to see him back.

                              I have this thing about truth, and the moment Brian Ford's blog was seeded by Viki, many of us knew the reason for it, and I think it insulting that Newsvine preferred to play the part of the Rainmaker.

                              Well, I can't comment on that, because I simply don't know what the hell it means.

                              So, now that the three of you have manipulated people to get your way,

                              huh? I made a suggestion, publicly, a month and a half ago. Newsvine must have thought it was a good one, because they implemented it. There's nothing more to it than that.

                              what's going to happen to those who write original work?

                              I would assume they'll continue to do so.

                              Those who prefer creative writing as opposed to a news event or opinion. Will it still be considered "News Other?"

                              Of course...but it will go in the 'not news' category, because, well, it's not news, and never was.

                              This isn't brain surgery, Soosalah.

                              • 7 votes
                              #21.10 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 12:18 PM EST

                              This isn't brain surgery, Soosalah.

                              Damn! That was a little cold and condescending!

                              The one thing I've noticed about people who are a big help to NV but aren't considered guides or staff is that they seem to have a bit of an ego at times.

                              If Brian and Dennis are representing NV, they could at least be a bit more professional. But I see how it works. There's a song by the Allman Brothers called "Whipping Boy."

                              • 2 votes
                              #21.11 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 12:41 PM EST

                              If Brian and Dennis are representing NV, they could at least be a bit more professional.

                              We're not. We're just newsviners being newsviners. I can't speak for Brian, but I've been explaining this change because I understand it - it was my suggestion.

                              Now, I'm sorry if you think my response was condescending, but tell me, how should I respond to veiled accusations like this:

                              Yes, I realize I sound like a little piss-ant, and call me a loon, but I have this thing about truth, and the moment Brian Ford's blog was seeded by Viki, many of us knew the reason for it, and I think it insulting that Newsvine preferred to play the part of the Rainmaker.

                              So, now that the three of you have manipulated people to get your way

                              There's nothing nefarious about any of this, and frankly, I'm surprised, and a bit dismayed, that anyone would think there is.

                              • 6 votes
                              #21.12 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 12:46 PM EST

                              Meh. I'm just going to go ahead an start agreeing with people when they say I represent Newsvine. No matter how many times it's suggested, no matter how many times it's debunked, people continue to believe what they want to believe, and if people want to believe crazy things, I'm not going to expend any energy dissuading them.

                              So, maybe I do, and maybe I don't.

                              I'm not exactly sure how *I* got thrown into the mix regarding this new rule given that I've been expressing confusion about its implementation -- oh wait, yes I am: Soosalah threw out yet another of her wild-eyed and unsupported conspiracy theories -- but it amuses me that I don't even have to try anymore in order to be implicated.

                              I just had a few simple questions.

                              • 7 votes
                              #21.13 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 1:00 PM EST

                              I don't think I understand the contention between certain Newsviners (others vs Brian Ford/Dennis McCann, etc). I think it has something to do with the definition of news as applied to the Newsvine community... is that close? The 'not-news' category is unfortunate in that case.

                              Nothing really has changed, Soosalah. I'm pretty sure the 'Not News' category is an attempt to broadly categorize "community happenings", not an attempt to officially decide what is or is not news on Newsvine. We can hash out an agreed upon definition in another article, hell, I'd even been willing to write/moderate it, if it has any shot of clearing the air of contempt.

                              • 4 votes
                              #21.14 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 1:10 PM EST

                              Brian,

                              I didn't know you when you were here before. After reading your former articles in the metavine group, I was under the impression that you were a NV staffer but decided to take a break.

                              Yeah, I really have to hand it to you about the old folks hanging around and flirting with each other... I don't remember exactly how you worded it. I just remember that you seemed to being a very bad day when writing it. Maybe that's just your style. I have an abrasive side to me as well.

                              • 1 vote
                              #21.15 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 1:20 PM EST

                              Ben --- that's exactly what I said in my post at the end of the second page. It's a matter of misinterpretation and/or misunderstanding of what was interpreted.

                              • 2 votes
                              #21.16 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 1:46 PM EST

                              Yeah, it hampers community progress, and I'm decidedly tired of it happening.

                              • 2 votes
                              #21.17 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 2:13 PM EST

                              Darrah, if a comment isn't in a green box, they are not staff. It is also clearly stated in the bioline (right under write article, seed link, edit content, etc) of their articles.

                              • 4 votes
                              #21.18 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 2:41 PM EST

                              I just remember that you seemed to being a very bad day when writing it.

                              Nah. Just an overly honest day. My opinion certainly hasn't changed, but it looks like the rules may address some of my concerns anyway.

                              I don't think I understand the contention between certain Newsviners (others vs Brian Ford...

                              I know exactly what it is. Other people, throughout Newsvine's history, get frustrated when someone else knows more about 1) the rules or 2) the expectations or 3) the way something works and they don't have the ability to keep their mouths shut when it turns out they're on the wrong side of 1, 2, or 3 -- so they last out at anyone who does understand the rules.

                              For example, the meta policy (to tie it to something on topic) was pretty straightforward and if I had a dollar for everytime someone broke it, and threw a fit because I dared to point that out (I must work for Newsvine, or have a crush on Calvin, or be a suckup, or I'm a netcop, or I'm trying to censor something I don't agree with) I'd trade that salary for my Newsvine earnings in a heartbeat.

                              People don't like being wrong, and they HATE being told they're wrong. And, too many people have a support group of people who will support them even IF they're wrong. So, they pick someone and they create a fiction about that person's behavior and repeat it so often that eventually, it may as well be true.

                              People would rather create conspiracy theories than be wrong -- and as recent history shows, when the actual moderators offer transparency, a chance to meet and discuss, the conspirators are nowhere to be found. Until their next complaint.

                              Which, of course, is part of my reticence about the new policy. Much like the old meta policy, it's more of a punishment for people who follow the rules than those who don't. But, if this one is really intended to curb certain types of content -- I'm hopeful.

                              • 7 votes
                              #21.19 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 3:27 PM EST

                              Sorry, Brian, I don't agree on this one. Just because I don't agree with you on Meta doesn't make me wrong. Did you ever think you might be wrong in the eyes of others on things you are cock sure about? Sometimes my viewpoint is based on some human need and not a technical or even practical need. Never forget that Newsvine was created for and by humans.

                              • 6 votes
                              #21.20 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 3:53 PM EST

                              No. Disagreeing with the policy doesn't make you wrong. Not following it because you don't agree with it does, though.

                              • 7 votes
                              #21.21 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 4:29 PM EST

                              I know exactly what it is. Other people, throughout Newsvine's history, get frustrated when someone else knows more about 1) the rules or 2) the expectations or 3) the way something works and they don't have the ability to keep their mouths shut when it turns out they're on the wrong side of 1, 2, or 3 -- so they last out at anyone who does understand the rules.

                              That's basically what Dennis said when I suggested it was the delivery. I still think the delivery could be the problem, though, especially because the word 'condescending' has been thrown out more than one time in separate instances, but, admittedly, I don't have the same zeal when it comes out to pointing out errors, usually catch them too late anyway, and haven't seen the precipitating comments, so I couldn't possibly make specific comment, or have the same experience. I will often type something up, then leave the page without posting, because the feeling I get in the political threads comes into play, I know the comment will either be ignored, marginalized is some way, etc. I'm not picking that battle, especially if the offending user has been here awhile, or has banded to a group. In other words, I'm not putting myself into a position where someone might feel like I'm telling them what they need to do, it's a free @!$%#ing country, dammit (oh, if they only knew).

                              I don't completely withdraw, though, still reporting for duty, especially when it comes my 'new friends' (friends don't let friends do stupid, senseless @!$%#), many of them the very people involved in this argument, and I've not once had the same issue (okay there were two over the years who took issue with me, but they were whack-jobs, seriously). I feel they respect that I've been here longer and that know more about the site than they do. They also know that I will not back them up if wrong, as one of my group co-admins found out recently. I don't dig the grouping.

                              Nice guys finish last, I know, I'm a nice guy (though in the real world, my silence is mistaken for being a dick), it's laying down arms or ideals or whatever, but I would think it better strategy to collect a group, become their friend, then use your influence to nudge them in the right direction, without coming off as a community police(wo)man [to them] despite the good intentions. There is, evidentially, a learning curve when it comes to good behavior, Internet or otherwise.

                              • 5 votes
                              #21.22 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 7:26 PM EST

                              Soosalah,

                              For example, I'm getting ready to post an article regarding a controversial subject. I've never done that, before, so am I still allowed to use the regular categories already in place?

                              Post your article regarding a controversial subject to whatever category is appropriate.

                              • 5 votes
                              #21.23 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 8:31 PM EST

                              To Ben from #21.14

                              If that is what you think, I trust you.

                              • 1 vote
                              #21.24 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 1:10 PM EST

                              Absolutely positive, Soos.

                              • 1 vote
                              #21.25 - Thu Dec 2, 2010 2:32 PM EST
                              Reply

                              Darrah - it looks to me that it's either: News or it's Not News.

                              So all of the stuff that isn't 'News' can go in a designated category that you happen to know exists (lol) - or you can put it under the "Not News" category and then tag it to all of the places you want it to show up.

                              • 5 votes
                              Reply#22 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:24 PM EST

                              There are 20 other categories up there. Everything from Politics to Sports, Religion to Travel to Arts.

                              If it doesn't belong in any of those, it goes in 'not-news.'

                              • 4 votes
                              #22.1 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:32 PM EST

                              Thank you, Dennis. That was mostly what I meant, too. I wonder if a lot of people miscategorize because they just assume a general heading for the majority of their content, that was why I said, "happen to know exists." ...The object appears to be to get people to think more about what category their work belongs in, and the headings across the top are nice to have to remind us.

                              • 1 vote
                              #22.2 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:49 PM EST

                              If it doesn't belong in any of those, it goes in 'not-news.'

                              Intriguing. What goes in "none of the above"?

                              All not news that people still want to see on the front page?

                              • 2 votes
                              #22.3 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:57 PM EST

                              You know, most people probably only really use a few categories anyway. Political folks seed to politics, maybe us or world news. Tech people seed there. Somebody must be seeding to Home & Garden, but I have no idea who.

                              It really shouldn't be hard for people to figure out where to put things.

                              Intriguing. What goes in "none of the above"?

                              fart polls.

                              • 4 votes
                              #22.4 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:59 PM EST

                              Does that mean I can put things where I want to? I just thought of a place I would like to shove some stuff.

                              • 4 votes
                              #22.5 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:26 PM EST

                              "Darrah - it looks to me that it's either: News or it's Not News.

                              So all of the stuff that isn't 'News' can go in a designated category that you happen to know exists (lol) - or you can put it under the "Not News" category and then tag it to all of the places you want it to show up."

                              I know. I was just seeing if Tyler would answer. I like to see his name...when he isn't having to suspend or ban someone. ;-)

                              My "quote" thingy isn't working.

                              • 1 vote
                              #22.6 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:31 PM EST
                              Reply

                              I like it.

                              Sometimes I just want to rant about dumb @!$%#. But never know where to put it.

                              Now if you guys would get rid of the bull@!$%# word filter, I'd be @!$%#ing peachy.

                              • 3 votes
                              #23 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:54 PM EST

                              David--rant away, and publish it to Not-News.

                              You can turn off your profanity filter in your Account Settings area. If people don't want to see profanity, they can leave it on. But anyone else who doesn't give a flying @!$%# about naughty words can turn it off, and see all the bull@!$%#s and @!$%#s and @!$%#s they'd like.

                              Click "Account" up there in the black account info bar beneath the header (you'll probably have to log in, but sometimes not). Under the "Global" tab, in "Account Information" (this is the default, but just in case...), you'll see the spot to turn off your Profanity Filter right under your name, which is under the spot where you upload your avatar.

                              • 6 votes
                              #23.1 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:10 PM EST

                              You can turn off your profanity filter in your Account Settings area. If people don't want to see profanity, they can leave it on. But anyone else who doesn't give a flying @!$%# about naughty words can turn it off, and see all the bull@!$%#s and @!$%#s and @!$%#s they'd like.

                              Best @!$%#ing policy ever.

                              • 4 votes
                              #23.2 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:21 PM EST

                              You can turn off your profanity filter in your Account Settings area.

                              Oh, so I'm the @!$%#?

                                #23.3 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:36 PM EST

                                Nice.

                                You want to know what's scary? I write software for a living.

                                haha Think about that next time you encounter a NewsVine bug. ;-)

                                  #23.4 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:37 PM EST

                                  David:

                                  I'd like to agree, but if I did it'd be a CoH violation. Then I'd be the @!$%#.

                                  • 6 votes
                                  #23.5 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:39 PM EST

                                  I'm so damn glad you all started cussing, I just found out my filter was turned on somehow... Had to fix that! I love seeing all the cuss words that folks write.

                                  • 6 votes
                                  #23.6 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:42 PM EST

                                  Oh, so I'm the @!$%#?

                                  You said it, not me.

                                  People who write software tend to be the people who habitually write in and ask how to do things. And then they usually respond to the answer with some crap about it not being done well enough for their tastes. Sigh.

                                  The profanity filter occasionally seems to get turned on mysteriously. I figure it out when I see a bunch of symbols in the place of a word, and then I say "What the @!$%# is this?" and then I go check my profanity filter and turn it back off. Because I like salty language.

                                  • 6 votes
                                  #23.7 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:51 PM EST

                                  Oh, no doubt. There is NOTHING worse than being on the phone with a clients "engineer". They are always pompous bastards.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #23.8 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:56 PM EST

                                  Viki, I guess I just haven't seen anyone cussing lately because I had no idea mine was off. I guess I need to start reading more controversial crap so I'd know sooner. *grins*

                                  Or maybe you could just show up on one of my articles once in a while and drop the "F" bomb so I'd know?

                                  • 4 votes
                                  #23.9 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:58 PM EST

                                  @David--pompous bastards. They are the bane of my existence.

                                  @rottlady--no @!$%#ing problem.

                                  • 5 votes
                                  #23.10 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:00 PM EST

                                  Viki - "salty language" --- talking like a sailor? ...well, shiver me timbers. lol (or maybe Popeye wasn't who you had in mind. ;)

                                  Ok, you answered one of the concerns about Meta articles that I had. That's a good idea to keep the Metavine, assuming that is where you meant, as a collection spot for strictly Meta. I can see how some things should be posted in both spots (Not News and Metavine), and Meta could be just "Not News."

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #23.11 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:18 PM EST

                                  If it wouldn't @!$%#ing turn itself on by itself it would be @!$%#ing great, But the @!$%#er likes to turn itself back on.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #23.12 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:16 PM EST

                                  Metavine is a group, not a category. So, you would post a meta article to the Not News category, and publish it to Metavine if you so choose. Metavine is specific to Newsvine-specific content, and is not necessarily the appropriate group for stuff that Not News, but isn't about Newsvine.

                                  Yeah, hemphill, that's really annoying. It doesn't happen to me too often. Does it turn back on for you more than a few times per year?

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #23.13 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 8:34 PM EST

                                  Viki -- Thanks for that clarification.

                                  My confusion on group vs. category partially comes from sometimes seeing the little green "tag" (where it says "not-news" on this article) just above By Newsvine Blog, as ..."meta" and they will also show "Metavine" under groups. That led me to believe it was both a category and a group ...before. ..Now, it really is.

                                  Sorry if 23.11, sounded confusing, but, you answered my question, and I do see how some things would be best to include in both spots. This should work out very well, imo, once everyone is aware of its existence and purpose.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #23.14 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 8:49 PM EST

                                  ..."Now it really is" ...as in "Not News." ...is what I meant. ;)

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #23.15 - Wed Dec 1, 2010 9:04 PM EST
                                  Reply

                                  If I may ....

                                  I think the relevant tags and groups should continue as before. That is, for example, a meta article should be posted to the "Not News" section AND still be posted to the Metavine group and tagged "Newsvine." That would render the Group and tag subsidiary but still useful at least for sub-categorizing the "Not News" section.

                                  I think the kinds of articles posted "Not News" should include:

                                  Meta

                                  Memes (like "8 things")

                                  Other community or relationship building items (Thank you for sharing that)

                                  Confessional writing. (Click the link please, it's a term of art, doesn't mean "admit to a crime or sin.")

                                  Fiction writing.

                                  However, I agree with Ben or whoever it was above who objected to photography as such being deemed "Not News." In the real news world, there really is a Pulitzer Prize for feature photography.

                                  • 7 votes
                                  Reply#24 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:02 PM EST

                                  Nicely stated, Jack. I think you've got the idea.

                                  • 7 votes
                                  #24.1 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:11 PM EST

                                  I'm not sure why anyone would change tagging behavior because of a category change. They're for different purposes. What about poll articles? (I use the term article loosely.)

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #24.2 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:40 PM EST

                                  Brian:

                                  I was unclear. All I meant was that tagging/groups would remain along with the new section, not that tagging would change.

                                  I was basically arguing for the continuation of the Meta groups, which, it seems, the owner soon after announced would be the case anyway.

                                  • 3 votes
                                  #24.3 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:05 PM EST

                                  Jack,

                                  I love the idea of sub-cats under not news! Most of what I write is definitely not news, but 2 or 3 subs would be nice. Maybe Meta, The Arts, and Stuff to BS and Talk About?

                                  • 3 votes
                                  #24.4 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:06 PM EST

                                  Jack,

                                  I love the idea of sub-cats under not news! Most of what I write is definitely not news, but 2 or 3 subs would be nice. Maybe Meta, The Arts, and Stuff to BS and Talk About?

                                  I love this idea. As I said i'm fine with fiction and fiction writing exercises being moved i just want to ensure they're not balkanized but if moved maybe they could have a subgroup like this in the arts.

                                  and thanks to jack for explaining his logic behind photography being treated different than fiction on this one - that clears up my confusion mostly

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #24.5 - Sun Dec 5, 2010 5:18 PM EST
                                  Reply

                                  Since we have a few NV staff members here, when is someone going to address the issue of the leaderboard?

                                  • 1 vote
                                  Reply#25 - Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:56 PM EST
                                  Jump to discussion page: 1 2
                                  You're in Easy Mode. If you prefer, you can use XHTML Mode instead.
                                  As a new user, you may notice a few temporary content restrictions. Click here for more info.